Numbers / measure words with 来

[aeriph]

Could somebody clarify the grammar of using numbers and measure words with 来?

As far as I understand it, the rule is:

a) With multiples of 10, 来 is placed before the measure word e.g. "十来个人" - "About 10 people"

b) With numbers that are not multiples of ten, 来 is placed after the measure word e.g. "十二个来人" - "About 12 people"

Is this correct?

What also confuses me is that "十个来人" is apparently still correct, despite not following a) above. I think it changes the meaning but I'm not sure in what way.

I'd be grateful if anyone could explain.

[Farkas]

sorry, I haven't heard of "十个来人",I think it's wrong.maybe you can say "来十个人",that means ten people will come.

"来" means more or less,I haven't heard of "十二个来人" either,when you say "十二",it means exactly,if you don't know how many of the people exactly,you can say "十二个人左右" ,rather than "十二个来人"

[edelweis]

I'm curious about this too because my book (Chinese grammar without tears) mentions the use of 来 only after character 十.

There is no mention of 来 (as a number approximation thingie) after the measure word, or after any other character.

Also a google search for 十来个人 gives many hits, but a search for 十个来人 gives very few hits. So wouldn't 十个来人 be "10 of the people that came" or maybe "10 of the next people" or something??? what about 十二个来人?

Can someone shed some light on this?

[skylee]

(a) is correct, (b) is not.

So wouldn't 十个来人 be "10 of the people that came"

something like that. but it sounds strange.

[SiMaKe]

Some guidance from Yip and Rimmington:

to emphasize approximation, add 来 to numbers rounded to 10 after unitary notations such as 十，白，千.

十来天 about 10 days

二十来岁 about 20 years old

三百来人 about 300 people

However, the definition and examples from nciku indicate the situation is a little less restrictive (not restricted to 10's)

definition: used after a round number or after a numeral plus a measure to indicate approximately, about, around

examples:

两米来高 about two meters high

二十来个 about 20

BTW 来人 can mean bearer or messenger so 十个来人 could also mean 10 messengers.

Also encountered another reference in an academic paper, which discusses uses of 来 in serial verb constructions, referring to the phrase 十来人 as being "about 10 people".

[aeriph]

@skylee

The examples I gave in the original post were from my textbook, so I'm surprised to hear one of them is wrong. What makes you say that B) is incorrect?

[Jane_PA]

Simake gave great explanation and examples.

二十来人 or 二十来个人 generally mean under 20 people, but usually not very accurated.

二十个来人mean something completely different，来 doesn't 修饰 20 in this phrase, but is an adj. of 人。

[skylee]

The examples I gave in the original post were from my textbook, so I'm surprised to hear one of them is wrong. What makes you say that is incorrect?

aeriph, then why did you ask "Is this correct?" about the two rules you listed in your post #1?

Look at the other replies. Don't listen to me if you think that I am wrong.

[xiaocai]

二十个来人 sounds funny to me as well. I think it is much less common to see 来 after a measure word? I could be wrong though.

[aeriph]

@skylee

Sorry, I thought you meant the example "十二个来人" was incorrect. Did you mean that what I wrote to explain it was wrong? My textbook just gives those examples without explanation, so I was asking for somebody to explain the rules behind them. I didn't think you were wrong I just wanted to know why (b ) was incorrect.

If it helps, these are all of the examples given in the textbook:

十来个人

一百来公里

十二个来人

三个来小时

十斤来重

All of which apparently express approximation.

[skylee]

I think 十二个来人 sounds odd but 三个来小时 and 十斤来重 sound ok. I wonder if it has to do with there are smaller units than 小時 (minute and second) and 斤 (tael).

[gougou]

It's the same as 多, no?

Before the measure word, it means that there might be a few whole units more, while after the measure word, it means that there might be a few fractions of a unit more (which would explain why it sounds weird when counting people):

十斤多/十斤来: 10.x pounds

十多斤/十来斤：1x pounds

[SiMaKe]

To add some additional clarification/confusion to what gougou offered, Yip and Rimmington includes these comments:

1.来 and 多 are sometimes added after unitary notations to emphasize the approximation.

2. 多 is also used to convey indeterminate excess and is added to numbers rounded to 10

3. 多 can also be used with single digit numbers up to ten when they occur with standard measures or with temporal nouns, which are de facto measures. In these cases. 多 comes after the standard measure and before the noun.

E.g.,

六英里多（路）over six miles

五年多（时间）over five years

两点多（钟）shortly past 2 o'clock

三个多月over three months

So if one can make the leap that 来 and 多 are used similarly in these cases, and thus that 来 works the same as 多, then this sheds a little more light on the issue of before or after the measure word.

[Jane_PA]

十来个人 Ok

一百来公里 Ok

十二个来人 I don't think I ever see a usage like this way. (I am a native speaker of Chinese and read a lot of novels and literature)

三个来小时 Ok

十斤来重 Ok but 十来斤重 more common

I think many of the phrases have no unified rule to follow. Some are just habit, like English.

[Jane_PA]

Some thing just occured to my mind.

It seems countable nouns cannot be used as 10个来人 or 3个来苹果，both are wrong。

But uncountable nouns can be used as 三个来小时，2斤来苹果，5块来钱, all sound Ok.

[skylee]

I think there might be some misunderstanding about "countable" vs "uncountable".

[wendywendy]

hehe, funny~ 十个来人~~~that grammatically means more than 10 but less than 11 people~~

[Zomac]

maybe it's useful to learn all these　altogether:

左右

大概

几

多

来

All are used to indicate approximation, something which is same same but different.

[gougou]

It seems countable nouns cannot be used as 10个来人 or 3个来苹果，both are wrong。

But uncountable nouns can be used as 三个来小时，2斤来苹果，5块来钱, all sound Ok.

Hours and apples both are countable. I still believe this is about whether whatever is being counted comes in whole units only (such as people) or can come in fractions of a unit (such as minutes in an hour, gram in a pound, jiao in a yuan...).

[SiMaKe]

maybe it's useful to learn all these altogether:...

May as well add 差不多 to the list.