pronunciation of pinyin "sh" and "z"

[Pravit]

Hello,

I know a Chinese-Thai who learned Mandarin in a Bangkok Chinese school. I occasionally practice speaking with them, but every time I say a word with "sh" or "z", they claim I am pronouncing it wrong and that it should be pronounced like English "s" and "j", respectively(e.g. "jai4 jian4" and not "zai4 jian4"). I have also noticed this in their pronunciation, however, it does not match up with what I've heard on the tapes that came with my coursebook. Perhaps there's simply different pronunciation of Mandarin in certain areas? I believe most Chinese-Thais come from the Fujian area and speak a dialect similar to what is spoken there and also in Taiwan(the dialect is called "tae jiu" in Thai and they call themselves "chao jo", I think).

BTW, wonderful forum you've got here, I've been looking for something like this to practice Chinese(if any of you are interested in learning Russian, there is an excellent and very active forum of this style at http://masterrussian.net/).

[Quest]

zi4 ji3 自己

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound0a/876fx.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound0b/876am.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound2b/2226lyz.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound0d/876ch.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound2d/2520ls.wav

zai4 jian4 再见

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound0a/203wt.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound0b/203zl.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound0c/203lz.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound0e/203sc.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound0g/203lxc.wav

si1 ji1 司机

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound7a/7068fx.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound7c/7068am.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound7d/7068ch.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound7f/7068sc.wav

shi2 ji4 实际(上)

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound10a/10299lqx.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound10b/10299hua.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound10c/10299jz.wav

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/Language/Sound10e/10299clh.wav

[Pravit]

Quest, that's really awesome, thanks! Which region do each of these recordings correspond to?

[Quest]

standard.

[Pravit]

Oh. I thought you were giving me various recordings of people from various regions speaking Mandarin. So these are all completely "standard" accents? What's your opinion on pronouncing the "z" like a "j"?

[Quest]

Yes they are completely "standard", if you hear any differences, they would be personal rather than regional.

To me, pronouncing the pinyin j as the pinyin z is better than the other way around, but either way is still wrong, because z and j are different, and also they take different vowels -- za/jia, zuo, ze/jie, zi/ji(different), zu/ju(diff).

In case I misunderstood you, if you were referring to the Chinese z and the English j, my advice is, dont draw on your own experience from your own language. Learn the z as a new sound, because there is no English equivalent of that sound.

[Pravit]

I know that there is no English equivalent and I would like to speak as "standard" as possible. What I meant to ask was your opinion on what that person said, that is, that the "z" makes a sound similar to an (English) "j." Are there a lot of Chinese who pronounce like this, perhaps from that region I mentioned?

[Quest]

I believe you were referring to Chaozhou 潮州。Chaozhouhua 潮州话 is very different from Mandarin. I don't know how they pronounce the z, but z is certainly nothing like the English j. When I say z (I am Cantonese), my lips stay unrounded and close to each other and maybe a little wider than usual, my upper teeth and lower teeth barely touch (or no touch), I can feel air hitting my lower lip, and my tongue stays flat, whereas when I say j in English, my lips are semi rounded, and middle or rear portion of my tongue kind of touches the ceiling. The z sound should be crisper than the j sound.

[wushijiao]

Well, it seems that in lots of southern China the pinyin "sh" is just s. For example the character 是 in Beijing is "shir", but more like "si" in Shanghai putonghua. The nothern accent is "standard", but I wonder what percent of putonghua speakers say the latter.

[seagate]

In terms of 'standard', it is very common that many native Chinese speakers' PU TONG HUA is not flawless, and some even far from standard. Take me as an example. I am from North China. I have never been able to differentiate between the first and second tone - they sound same to my ear.

As for Pravit's question, it is a very common mistake some people make when they pronounce 's' and 'sh', 'c' and 'ch', 'z' and 'zh' in terms of PINYIN. In my opinion, 'z' sounds like the English pronunciation 'ds' (as in 'words'), while 'zh' sounds like the English pronunciation 'j' (as in Jack). So in zai(4) jian(4), pronouncing 'jai(4) jian(4)' is definitely not standard mandarin.

[BeijingSlacker]

For example the character 是 in Beijing is "shir"

As a native Beijinger, I can say with 100 percent certainty that Beijingers pronounce 是 as "shi" rather than "shir". We do add "r" to lots of words, mostly nouns, but not to 是。

事儿 is rather common though.

One thing to mention is that a person living in Beijing doesn't imply s/he is a Beijnger, and some of those non-Beijingers in Beijing tend to add the "r" sound to the wrong places when trying to sound like a local.

[Pravit]

Thanks everybody for your replies.

I agree about "z" sounding like "ds" and usually try to pronunce it in this way. It's just that someone told me something else and I was wondering about your opinion of it. About "z", when I say it, I always hear a bit of a buzzing noise. But my book says "z" is supposed to be an unvoiced consonant. It's very difficult for me to say it without a buzzing noise, especially in words like "zi." Any suggestions?