Reputation System

[wai ming]

Although I generally have no qualms with the reputation system, I have (rightly or wrongly) a similar impression to rob07: a disproportionate number of negative votes have gone to native Chinese speakers.

It would be good if people bear in mind that sometimes posters don't mean to come across the way that they do, particularly on the internet and when writing in a language that is not their native tongue, and aren't so hasty to hit the little red button because they didn't like what someone said - or the way they said something

[Meng Lelan]

I've been using it a bit and can see the plus sides, but on reflection, when I see someone with a big red minus number at the bottom of their post it seems a bit unfair, because you don't know who it's from, and there are no reasons given for it, it's a bit like someone saying "I think you're wrong, you're stupid, I don't want to listen to you any more, naah naah naah".

This is an excellent point. Ever since roddy put in the reputation system, I haven't felt like the Forums have been as fun to participate in as in the past for the above quoted reason, and I don't visit the Forums as much as I did previously.

[adrianlondon]

Many forums have these rep things. And many forums get all in a tizz discussing how to use them. They're just little green and red things, we're not sending the results to the International Criminal Court. One fix to stop people seeing red (haha!) is to only have + reps and not allow - ones.

[Gleaves]

I find the reputation system mostly helpful, if underused. I have generally seen helpful posts being voted up, and unhelpful posts being marked down. It might be a good idea to post at the top of this thread some brief guidelines on how/when to vote plus or minus.

Off-topic, but I'd like to see the "rate topic" option used more. It would be great to have a list of the highest rated threads. Could be especially useful for newcomers.

[yonglin]

I second adrianlondon's suggestion of allowing only positive (+) reputation. Unhelpful posts will be forgotten soon enough: there's really no reason to bully people with unconventional opinions. Posts that are truly inappropriate should be dealt with by the admins (isn't this what the "Report" feature is for anyway?).

[Meng Lelan]

adrianlondon's idea is absolutely excellent. I support having positive reps only.

[jbradfor]

While I certainly understand that position, I feel there are some times that negative points are beneficial to the forums, if used properly.

Examples are people that tend to post corrections to other peoples' post without confirming they are correct first, and their corrections are usually wrong. [i won't name names, but I do note that after the reputation system started that person stopped doing it.]

Other examples are posts that attack others. Or posts that really make no sense. Or posts that misrepresent what others say.

Regarding the "report" feature, I would be loathe to use it except in extreme circumstances. To me, I would "report" a post only if I felt it should be removed.

Roddy, maybe we could have an "opt out" feature for some users that really don't like it? I wouldn't want it for users that want out because they are getting a lot of negative feedback (the feedback is good for them), but rather for users that don't like it? I, for one, would have no objection if Meng Lelan opts-out if she doesn't like it.

My other suggestion is if there is a way to make it easier to see the rating of posts, e.g. when you look at a user's posts, the rating is also shown? I for one would like to see which of my posts people like and don't like.

[yonglin]

jbradfor, I understand your concerns, but don't you think that these types of posts are better dealt with by writing a polite reply?

For example, correcting a mistaken "correction" by providing appropriate source materials, or clarifying what you actually meant if you think that someone has misrepresented what you said? Posts might make no sense because of linguistic issues (there is a large number of non-native English speakers here, and there's really no need to marginalize us any further). Anyone can see that posts which attack others are mostly embarassing for the attacker him/herself.

I'm of the opinion that unless the post is so inappropriate that it had better be removed by means of the "report" feature, it should be respected. I personally find the negative rep feature somewhat passive aggressive, and just not particularly constructive for the community. It would be far more useful if unhelpful posts were countered by the means of a polite response. Then both later readers of the post and the person who originally wrote the post will learn why it was deemed unhelpful.

[gougou]

I find that the posts of native Chinese speakers one of the most valuable parts of the site.

Vote them up then! There seem to be at least two of you already, and as there's very few posts that got more than two negative points, you should be able to at least cancel them out. Assuming that most people find these posts useful, they should eventually end up going very green - if they don't, it might be an indication that not everybody finds them quite as useful as you.

However, I'm not sure your worries are really warranted, as some of the most frequent contributors (such as skylee, kenny2006woo, SiMaKe and a couple of others, who I believe all are native speakers?) have excellent reputations.

[jbradfor]

You are correct, of course, that polite corrections are good. [You can look at my posts to see if I've actually lived up to that. Probably not.]

What I should have emphasizes more is using the '-' for people that have a history (IMO, of course) of making the same types of detramental posts repeatly, and it being pointed out to them. I wish there were a way I could see all the +/- I've given to confirm, but I think pretty much all of the (few) '-' I've given were to people that repeatedly made detramental posts, being called on it, and not changing. [No, Roddy, that is not a hint for you to go check....] In this case, I feel the '-' is another form of social pressure when other forms failed.

[xianhua]

Given the highly fluid nature of membership of the forum, I doubt any 'gentleman's agreement' here to rate only positively would be vaild in several weeks' time - let alone months.

I think the reputation system served its purpose very effectively with one particular poster (I may be thinking of the same person as jbradfor) who constantly strived to belittle and contradict other members. His approach simply made people reserved about posting (or it did with me anyway) since the said party tended to attack and patronise the newer members (and it's the posts by newer members which are often the most useful as they make you re-consider the things which you thought you knew). This cyber-bullying ceased once his rating plummeted into the depths of the underworld.

Anyway, one addition which could be considered is the addition of ratings made, in addition to ratings received. A quick glance at any user's profile would then reveal how liberal they had been with the +'s and -'s. I suspect this action would lead to some careful reflection before posting a negative rating. That said, I would not hesitate to use it deservedly, as described above.

[muirm]

I don't do that. Do you?

From a conceptual level if you put stock in the reputation system then you will care about your reputation rating. If you care about your reputation rating then it will affect what you choose to say because you want a high score. In other words, you would view an up-rated post as a success and a down-rated post as a failure. To answer your question: no, I don't "do that" because, as you pointed out, if I don't like the system I can simply ignore it.

[roddy]

Interesting to see so much . . . interest in this.

I've got to say that some people are perceiving the whole thing working in a way which I just don't recognize, and I can't see any evidence for. I doubt anyone is self-censoring and pandering (and even if they are I suspect you could just as easily call it giving more thought to their posts and trying to be more friendly and helpful). I can't see that native Chinese speakers are getting marked down more, though I suppose it's not impossible.

If you see that happening, by all means stick in a 'Thanks for trying to help, but . . .' post.

I would encourage people to also post in the topic if they want to comment on a particular post. But I think people are reluctant to stick their head above the parapet like that in the case of posts they don't like. And to be blunt, sometimes posts are made which I simply can't be bothered responding to - who's got the time to correct someone who's being deliberately obtuse or irritating? I'll happily send them an Internet raspberry and move along

It would be far more useful if unhelpful posts were countered by the means of a polite response.

I can agree with that, but people simply don't. This post has a -3 (currently) but none of those marking it down have commented on it. Opaque passive-aggressive feedback is better than none.

Regarding the "report" feature, I would be loathe to use it except in extreme circumstances. To me, I would "report" a post only if I felt it should be removed.

I really would love people to use that more often. It doesn't have to be a 'you should delete this' message, it just could be 'I find this user a little annoying' or 'I'm not sure, but I suspect this guy is consistently wrong'.

Case in point, the poster jbradfor and others refer to - before the reputation system we did not have one single piece of feedback, negative or otherwise. As soon as it comes in it very quickly became very clear what people's opinions were. (for reference he's gone - not because his reputation plummeted, we just couldn't have a non-obscene conversation about the reasons for it).

when you look at a user's posts, the rating is also shown? I for one would like to see which of my posts people like and don't like.

That would be useful but won't make any promises on implementing it.

Vote them up then! There seem to be at least two of you already, and as there's very few posts that got more than two negative points, you should be able to at least cancel them out.

Yep. Very easy to do. Although I'd encourage (and that's all I can do, there's no way I'm going to try and police this) people to vote posts up only when they think they're genuinely helpful or whatever, not just because they don't like the colour red.

[jbradfor]

I really would love people to use that more often. It doesn't have to be a 'you should delete this' message, it just could be 'I find this user a little annoying' or 'I'm not sure, but I suspect this guy is consistently wrong'.

And what would you do with such information?

Honestly, I would feel like a 4th grade tattletail to use this for anything except extreme circumstances. "Roddy, gougou's poking me, make him stop!" [sorry gougou, nothing personal, I just picked you at random ]

[Hofmann]

In the end the reputation system does nothing except maybe contribute to a banning decision (which I assume would never be based only on reputation points). I just find it's most useful for seeing what people like and what people don't like.

[roddy]

It would get added to the sum total of things I know. If a post annoys me, I'm likely to think it might just be me. If I know it annoys four other people, I know it isn't. Plus you get to vent.

[gougou]

Sorry gougou, nothing personal

Oh it is now!

[adrianlondon]

If a post annoys me, I'm likely to think it might just be me. If I know it annoys four other people, I know it isn't.

But this system doesn't work like that. Well, maybe to you mods it does.

For example, if 5 people like a post and five don't, it ends up with zero; as if no one cared. On another forum I'm on (englishforum.ch) they have something similar, but called "thanks" and "groans" and they're listed under each post. So one post could have five of each. That way at least you know it's contentious ;)

There's a rep system there as well, but it adds to a person's overall score - so each member has some green or red dots next to them which act as a summary as to what others think of their posts.

However, like this thread here, that forum is also full of meta discussions discussing the "thanks" and rep feature and how useful it is etc etc etc.

[xianhua]

Is it still working correctly? I just noticed a member with a total of 3 posts (and no apparent plus marks) with a feedback of 10 positives?

[aristotle1990]

It'd be cool if you ranked forum members by reputation / number of posts -- get some competition going on in here.

EDIT: Wow, real funny with the minuses guys...