The Demonization of Non-Mandarin Sinitic Language

[renzhe]

Should the right to be taught in their own language in school be extended to Hispanic students in the US?

Hoffman said "taught their language", not "taught IN their language". I understood it to mean that learning how to use your own mother tongue properly is very important. Teaching Spanish in the US is common, although it is usually geared towards English-speaking beginners, rather than teaching high-level language to native speakers. As a result, second-generation native Spanish speakers in the US will learn Shakespeare and Hemmingway, but might struggle with reading Cervantes. This sort of education tends to kill off minority languages.

While I agree with his sentiment, it might be difficult to draw the line. There are people from more than 100 different countries living in Germany at the moment, and Germany is not even particularly multi-cultural compared to countries like the UK or France. So you could introduce Bavarian or Low Saxon classes in schools for the native speakers, but what about Turkish? Croatian/Bosnian/Serbian? Roma?

[renzhe]

green40 :

First of all, wushijiao is not Northern Chinese. He is someone who learned both Mandarin and Cantonese, and lived both in the north and the south. This makes his perspective interesting for many of us.

You seem to be misunderstanding people and arguing based on very emotional impulses. It would probably help the discussion if you calmed down a bit and read people's posts more carefully. Saying that Northern Chinese are not Chinese, or that Mandarin is not a Chinese language is beyond ridiculous. Also, the comparisons to WWII will not help your argument.

If Cantonese were a dialect of Mandarin

Nobody has ever said that Cantonese was a dialect of Mandarin. They are both sometimes considered dialects of the Chinese language, but linguists pretty much agree that they are different languages, belonging to the group of closely related Chinese languages.

However, Mandarin vocabulary is already listed as "standard" and nowadays only "standard" can be used.

Mandarin vocabulary has been the base for the written vernacular language for more than 500 years. Virtually all literature not written in classical Chinese uses Mandarin grammar and vocabulary, from 三国 onwards.

Many poets who weren't Cantonese (not born in Guangdong, Guangxi) wrote with nowadays "Cantonese" usage.

Can you explain this in more detail? Cantonese did not exist in 李白's time (neither did other contemporary Chinese languages/dialects) and he certainly did not write in Cantonese. How did these authors write with "Cantonese" usage?

Therefore Mandarin can't convey these feelings and should not be used to teach literature.

How would you teach 红楼梦 without Mandarin vocabulary and grammar? Or are things written in 白话 not considered literature?

If a child put "明日" (tomorrow) on his essay, his teacher would told him to write "明天" instead, because "日" isn't a Mandarin usage.

This got me interested. I don't see how somebody who speaks Mandarin could say this. Do you speak Mandarin?

[green40]

Mandarin vocabulary has been the base for the written vernacular language for more than 500 years. Virtually all literature not written in classical Chinese uses Mandarin grammar and vocabulary, from 三国 onwards.

How would you teach 红楼梦 without Mandarin vocabulary and grammar? Or are things written in 白话 not considered literature?http://bbs.cantonese.asia/thread-2896-1-1.html

http://bbs.cantonese.asia/thread-2896-1-1.html

Go and look through all the pages before claiming "all literature not written in classical Chinese uses Mandarin grammar and vocabulary, from 三國 onwards."

Can you explain this in more detail? Cantonese did not exist in 李白's time (neither did other contemporary Chinese languages/dialects) and he certainly did not write in Cantonese. How did these authors write with "Cantonese" usage?

It seems you Mandarin speakers are more impulsive than me that you don't even care to look and digest what I mean in my powerpoint.

Do you Mandarin people use 食飲着話 as verbs anymore?"

This got me interested. I don't see how somebody who speaks Mandarin could say this. Do you speak Mandarin?

Do you see most mainstream newspaper (except those base in Cantonese region) don't use "明日"? Most just write in "明天"

Why do nowadays "食" as VERB can't be written out in mainstream?

but what about Turkish? Croatian/Bosnian/Serbian? Roma?

What a bastard colonist.

Cantonese is the native of Cantonese regions.You amaze me that you take the example of Turkish in Germany to compare with Cantonese in Cantonese region. Bastard

[renzhe]

Go and look through all the pages before claiming "all literature not written in classical Chinese uses Mandarin grammar and vocabulary, from 三國 onwards."

You linked to a discussion of ancient poems in Classical Chinese. They will obviously use Classical Chinese grammar and vocabulary. You are not seriously suggesting that 蘇軾 (1037 – 1101 A.D.) wrote in Cantonese?

You also changed my sentence to mean something I didn't say. This is rather childish.

It seems you Mandarin speakers are more impulsive than me that you don't even care to look and digest what I mean in my powerpoint.

Your site does not work on my computer, sorry. Can you give a link for download?

Do you Mandarin people use 食飲着話 as verbs anymore? Why do nowadays "食" as VERB can't be written out in mainstream?

You can see them written occasionally, but I don't remember seeing them other than in 武侠小说. I don't remember seeing them in modern written vernacular.

You can write them, but it will probably look old-fashioned, that's all.

Do you see most mainstream newspaper (except those base in Cantonese region) use "明日"? Most just write in "明天"

1. 明日 is Mandarin

2. It is more formal than 明天 in Mandarin

3. It is used a in the written language, especially literature

You amaze me that you take the example of Turkish in Germany to compare with Cantonese in Cantonese region.

Actually, I used Low Saxon and Bavarian as the examples which compare to Cantonese in Cantonese-speaking regions. Low Saxon and Bavarian are both languages spoken by Germans in Germany. You could have gone to Wikipedia and found this out before insulting people again.

What do you have against Turkish people anyway?

Where are you from?

[jbradfor]

Interestingly enough, weather.com.cn uses 明日: http://www.weather.com.cn/html/weather/101010100.shtml

Northern Chinese are 1000 times worser than colonist and Japanese(during the time of WW2, to be specific).

There's an old usenet rule-of-thumb that when the Nazi's are invoked, the thread is official dead. While I realize this is a different part of WWII, I think that green40 has gone from having a good point in the beginning to making meaningless rants and spouting obsenties, and it's best to leave him alone for a while so he can calm down....

[green40]

You linked to a discussion of ancient poems in Classical Chinese. They will obviously use Classical Chinese grammar and vocabulary. You are not seriously suggesting that 蘇軾 (1037 – 1101 A.D.) wrote in Cantonese?

You also changed my sentence to mean something I didn't say. This is rather childish.

You don't care to look what I posted and twist my argument. You ARE very adult.

I am not suggesting that ancient people wrote in Cantonese and it is you TWISTING my argument.

I've already put an analogy, "Classical Chinese text is like Latin and all the Chinese languages are derived from it", in the previous page.

It seems you are too impulsive that you don't even look into the argument itself and twisting arguments around.

Your site does not work on my computer, sorry. Can you give a link for download?

That means you have NOT read my argument before posting in here.

You can see them written occasionally, but I don't remember seeing them other than in 武侠小说. I don't remember seeing them in modern written vernacular.

You can write them, but it will probably look old-fashioned, that's all.

I am talking about SPOKEN, honey.

No, I can't write it, Nobody can write these verbs or else they will be criticized as writing "Cantonese".

You don't have idea how the suppression goes AT ALL.

1. 明日 is Mandarin

2. It is more formal than 明天 in Mandarin

3. It is used a in the written language, especially literature

My Guangzhou friend said his teacher didn't allow him to use "明日" because he said "明日" is Cantonese.

And nowadays, most mainstream newspaper don't use "明日", most of the use "明天", as you have stated yourself, more "FORMAL".

Why is "明天" more formal than "明日" when "明日" can be seen even in Japanese, which they borrowed vocabulary from Chines during Tang Dynasty?

Why is "明日" regarded as less formal? Ask yourself.

What do you have against Turkish people anyway?

It seems you are the person just to pick fight.

First, you haven't read my powerpoint.

Second, you don't care look at the discussion I posted.

Third, twisting my argument.

[green40]

Interestingly enough, weather.com.cn uses 明日

Schools ban students from writing 明日.

Mandarin promotion wasn't that vigorous in the past.

Therefore, some "non - standard" usage can be seen.

here's an old usenet rule-of-thumb that when the Nazi's are invoked, the thread is official dead

I am just talking about there is an essay in a Chinese-texbook that is used in high-school - it is called "最後一課", which is about what had Nazi done to the French language.

How sensible are you when you see the keyword "Nazi" and automatically think it must be "insulting"

making meaningless rants and spouting obsenties, and it's best to leave him alone for a while so he can calm down....

How meaningless?

I've given evidences.

I've given grammatical and phonetics details as my argument while many people in here just don't have much detail to back up their points.

You haven't discussed on my grammatical and phonetics part point by point and just calling me "rants".

How sensible are you?

If you don't know the situation yourself, don't call people mad or liar.

I finally understand why the minority hate Han people. The Han people don't reason. They just give brainwashed info to the World. Just like recently, many Mandarin speakers just comment on western media sites that Cantonese is just a dialect of Mandarin and I have to cite books in the comments.

Outsiders who have no knowledge of the situation are brainwashed by their false info.

Like last time, CCTV couldn't stop broadcasting Tibetan monks burning shops and killing people. Not until I went to demonstration myself and I found CPC have police to pretend as demonstrators and attack people. Then, next day, the media claimed that demonstrators were very "violent".

But at the end,

nobody can be sensible when their beloved mother tongue are being wiped out.

Now I doubt if people have read my powerpoint before posting in here . Now Mandarin supporter post because they see other people attack on the Mandarin-dictates policy.

They are the real impulsive people. I read all your points and replied it one by one.

People just come here to insult me without looking at my points.

In order to argue grammatically and phonetically with Mandarin supporter, I have studied phonetics, Tai-Kadai, Tibetan, Old Chinese, research on Old and Middle Chinese .

It is some people in here just give arguments that are based on brainwashed info.

This is very same reason why Tibetan and Uighur are so angry with China and Han people.

The Tibetan and Uighur are deemed not sensible too. "They love their languages and culture too much".

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qALTZeF5j28/TFp8Q6OWfYI/AAAAAAAAJPs/rEmDDVbSjlA/s1600/004%E8%97%8F%E8%AF%AD%E6%96%87%E5%89%8D%E6%99%AF%E5%A0%AA%E5%BF%A7-3.jpg

They should chant the same slogan "I am "Chinese" kid. I love to speak Mandarin".

Nowadays China is a fascist country

And do you know that those public figure who joined the "pro-Cantonese(language)" demonstration are called "traitors" by pro-Beijing newspaper?

"To solve the problem of Cantonese usage , let's flood their school with Mandarin and eventually they will pick up Northern usage/phonetics/grammar and then problem is solved"

How meaningful are these arguments? That is no difference from killing that language.

Maybe because this is a "Chinese", Mandarin to be exact" forum so people think these meaningless argument meaningful.

Most people just focus on the little **** I used but not on my argument as whole and deemed my argument as a "rant"

I can't sleep now.

But I will fight for my mother tongue no matter what.

Anyway, my mission accomplished - just to get that powerpoint on google.

Looking from the responses, I think I have to make a powerpoint with proper cites.

[MakMak]

One thing I would take issue with, however, is the idea that Mandarin is a more new language, and therefore doesn't have the "history" that the other dialects/regionalects/languages have. (One often reads this sort of thing, and I'm not saying that anyone is explicitly saying that here). But what is the sub-context of this? It seems to me that it is often argued that Cantonese has more direct links to Middle Chinese, as evidenced by the better rhyming of Tang poems and whatnot, whereas Mandarin experienced larger shifts due to contacts with northern tribes. First, I'm no linguist, but I highly doubt there was ever one version of Chinese uniformly spoken in the Tang dynasty, or in any dynasty that spanned hundreds of years and had millions of square kilometers in territory, and I'd be willing to bet that there were tons and tons of dialects back then. Second, so what if Mandarin was later influenced greatly? Are northern tribe people not "Chinese"? Finally, why is a longer history always better? Must history always be phallusized?

Mandarin speaking people have their pride in what they speak. You guys can believe that it's the money maker and the language that ALL Chinese must know and perhaps maybe the only language. Barbaric, historic, prideful or not or anything else for the matter, you can't force your language upon us Cantonese people and expect us to wholeheartedly accept that. Our language is Cantonese; perhaps Mandarin can fit in a little here and little there, but you can NOT deny the existence of our language. That's the problem.

- Northern Chinese people were influenced by Northern Tribes, and your language reflects that; that's fine.

- Southern Chinese (e.g. Yue People) were not influenced by them and developed our own language, regardless of how much it's related to Middle Chinese, and our language reflects that; that's fine too.

- Southern Chinese people learning the Northern Chinese language and culture for any reason; that's fine as well.

- But to have Southern Chinese people be told that their language is demonic, inferior and etc. by Northern Chinese and that they should learn their language instead? I'm sorry that's not acceptable.

Worded nicely, it's "harmonizing and uniting the peoples of China by language". Worded not-so-nicely and its Mandarin control, power, and hegemony. When Japan invaded multiple countries in WWII, what did they do with the peoples of their conquered and annexed lands? They forced them to learn Japanese. That's why some Taiwanese people today who are around... say 70+? ... are able to speak Japanese because they were forced to learn it. Koreans in turn were forced to give up their Korean names and adopt Japanese names. Why? Because the easiest way to destroy peoples power is to destroy their pride. To do that you destroy their culture, and the easiest way you can start is to destroy their language.

So why would anyone go about limiting the use of Cantonese? I find no good reason for that, that won't bring about negative consequences. If the people's Mandarin is not good enough, why not have them study harder, provide better programs instead of limiting Cantonese? Limiting Cantonese will cause people's Cantonese ability to drop, and thus future generations will drop too. Sometimes I feel like Mandarin speaking people believe that if you're Cantonese, your language is in your blood and you can speak it no matter how little you use it. If you speak only one language, try learning another one say French, and then moving to a French only neighborhood and living their for a long while. See how much English you'll retain when you start using it less. A professor of mine whose first language was that from Guangxi can't even speak that anymore now that he's used English and Mandarin too much and rarely uses his native tongue to the point that his brother was like "No no no! Just use Mandarin! Your native tongue is horrible now!"

I read an article the other day, and I believe the person's reasoning was legitimate. There's a city in Guangdong named Hoiping (開平). In the past, people always said "if you live and grow up in Hoiping, you can go anywhere without any trouble." The reason? Three languages coexisted in Hoiping: Cantonese, Teochew, Hakka. In Southern China, those were primarily the languages everyone spoke, so if you knew all three, you could do business with just about anyone. Now in this new age, if the languages in question are to be Cantonese and Mandarin, why can't we just coexist together without ever having ill intentions towards much less incentive to destroy the other? You guys can keep your language, we can keep ours AND learn yours at the same time. Done. When we step into your land, we speak your language. When you step in our land, you speak our language. Doesn't that seem fair?

一個民族失去了它的語言，會必然失去它的文化. (correct my grammar if it's wrong) That's what I believe. If you lose your language, you will inevitably lose your culture.

[renzhe]

Barbaric, historic, prideful or not or anything else for the matter, you can't force your language upon us Cantonese people and expect us to wholeheartedly accept that.

I don't remember that anybody on this forum has ever tried to force anything on anybody. I would actually estimate that the majority of regular posters here are against governmental control of media, and are interested and supportive of Chinese dialects/regionalects/languages other than Mandarin.

The fact that most people concentrate on learning vernacular Chinese and spoken Mandarin does not mean that we have something against Cantonese.

The issue of having a national language which is taught in school and used for media is a double-edged sword. It provides opportunity and mobility, but it can be detrimental to smaller languages and dialects. This is not only a Chinese issue, as has been discussed before. German, French, Russian and Spanish have all expanded this way, as have countless other languages, sometimes more peacefully, sometimes less. I do see the advantage of having a standard that is widely spoken in China. The wannabe linguist in me, however, would like to see less dominant regionalects thrive as well. It would be great for Shanghai to keep its (awesome sounding) dialect, and for Cantonese to stay strong as a medium for films, TV and publishing. The PRC policy is definitely not optimal in this sense.

But sadly, every discussion of the topic seems to deteriorate into name-calling :rolleyes:

[MakMak]

Barbaric, historic, prideful or not or anything else for the matter, you can't force your language upon us Cantonese people and expect us to wholeheartedly accept that.

I don't remember that anybody on this forum has ever tried to force anything on anybody. I would actually estimate that the majority of regular posters here are against governmental control of media, and are interested and supportive of Chinese dialects/regionalects/languages other than Mandarin.

Oh that wasn't on this forum in particular. I meant in general. I've had some people who spoke Mandarin (Shangdong 山東人) tell me to "Forget about Cantonese, it's pretty useless. Mandarin is more efficient. Who cares about the history or this or that. It's about using it." I can't accept that. Why do WE Cantonese people have to give everything up for their sake? Isn't it enough that we learn both our language and Mandarin? Why must we also now give ours up?

There was this other guy (Wuhan 武漢人). Heh, he gave an even BETTER answer. "Cantonese is the language of gangsters and rapists"... my response was seriously "what... the... hell..." I'm sure many of you guys here in this forum don't hate on Cantonese nor wish for its demise. But for people out there in the world who just wanna eliminate our language. Sometimes I just wanna ask: "why?"

[Hofmann]

Hoffman said "taught their language", not "taught IN their language".

Of course, being taught in one's own language is a right also.

green40,

Where are you from? It is good that you support Cantonese, but the way you do it might be counterproductive. You might want to read others' posts more carefully to avoid misunderstanding, and perhaps write more clearly if you can. Hasty conclusions about people are also dangerous.

[xiaocai]

Oh that wasn't on this forum in particular. I meant in general. I've had some people who spoke Mandarin (Shangdong 山東人) tell me to "Forget about Cantonese, it's pretty useless. Mandarin is more efficient. Who cares about the history or this or that. It's about using it." I can't accept that. Why do WE Cantonese people have to give everything up for their sake? Isn't it enough that we learn both our language and Mandarin? Why must we also now give ours up?

There was this other guy (Wuhan 武漢人). Heh, he gave an even BETTER answer. "Cantonese is the language of gangsters and rapists"... my response was seriously "what... the... hell..." I'm sure many of you guys here in this forum don't hate on Cantonese nor wish for its demise. But for people out there in the world who just wanna eliminate our language. Sometimes I just wanna ask: "why?"

All I can reply is FUCK YOU.

Northern Chinese are 1000 times worser than colonist and Japanese(during the time of WW2, to be specific).

So how about the Cantonese people themselves? Better make sure you are blame-free before you point your finger at others.

I could easily say I had worse experience when I tried to speak Mandarin in Hong Kong (which I have been doing in the past) but after reading this post I realised that things are always changing and it is not fair and can be even dangerous to generalise only a few personal cases to a large population with great internal variation. This kind of examples more than often just lead to nothing but personal attacks which are not productive at all.

And until now I still have seen any solid evidence of "Demonization of Cantonese" in this post so far. Speaking of cultural revolution, 文字狱 is one of the common forms employed in political persecution in cultural revolution you know...

[GreenArrow45]

Kobo Daishi, I don't think using Spanish to teach or teaching Spanish to Hispanics in the U.S. is quite the same. The vast majority of them are in the U.S. by choice, and as such, made the choice to live in a country where English is the primary language. Although the argument is certainly the same that learning English or learning Mandarin (in the case of HK) is going to be more beneficial to your future career (probably) than learning your mother language, you should remember that HK isn't necessarily a part of the Mainland by choice.

I think that could be the biggest problem with this, as you have a group of people who, many of the posters on this forum presumably were born or lived in a time when the government in HK was different. Then, as the government changed, they found their mother language being oppressed so as to create a harmonious society... I could be wrong, but, this is just my impression as an outsider to the situation.

[green40]

green40,

Where are you from? It is good that you support Cantonese, but the way you do it might be counterproductive. You might want to read others' posts more carefully to avoid misunderstanding, and perhaps write more clearly if you can. Hasty conclusions about people are also dangerous]

If I were not from HK, how could I tell people about rubbish HK teachers? :rolleyes:

Also, why does "where are you from" matter in language preservation?

Some people in here don't even look at the powerpoint and even ignore the name of website and just leave message like "name-calling"...

[xiaocai]

Kobo Daishi, I don't think using Spanish to teach or teaching Spanish to Hispanics in the U.S. is quite the same. The vast majority of them are in the U.S. by choice, and as such, made the choice to live in a country where English is the primary language. Although the argument is certainly the same that learning English or learning Mandarin (in the case of HK) is going to be more beneficial to your future career (probably) than learning your mother language, you should remember that HK isn't necessarily a part of the Mainland by choice.

I think that could be the biggest problem with this, as you have a group of people who, many of the posters on this forum presumably were born or lived in a time when the government in HK was different. Then, as the government changed, they found their mother language being oppressed so as to create a harmonious society... I could be wrong, but, this is just my impression as an outsider to the situation.

America didn't become an English speaking country by choice I think? My history is generally bad so I could be wrong but I heard that there are colonisation and wars involved in it.

And where did you get the impression that Cantonese has been oppressed in Hong Kong as well? I know a lot of things have changed but I think Cantonese is still the common language in Hong Kong.

[green40]

So how about the Cantonese people themselves? Better make sure you are blame-free before you point your finger at others.

I could easily say I had worse experience when I tried to speak Mandarin in Hong Kong (which I have been doing in the past) but after reading this post I realised that things are always changing and it is not fair and can be even dangerous to generalise only a few personal cases to a large population with great internal variation. This kind of examples more than often just lead to nothing but personal attacks which are not productive at all.

And until now I still have seen any solid evidence of "Demonization of Cantonese" in this post so far. Speaking of cultural revolution, 文字狱 is one of the common forms employed in political persecution in cultural revolution you know...

Blame the Cantonese for not giving up their lives for Cantonese language? for not fighting with the tanks? :rolleyes: <_<

Mandarin speakers love denying the suppression of Cantonese.

I've collected news article that Mandarin officials love accusing this and that as "Cantonese" usage and tell people not to write it out.

I will make a new powerpoint and new paper and post it everywhere,

And where did you get the impression that Cantonese has been oppressed in Hong Kong as well? I know a lot of things have changed but I think Cantonese is still the common language in Hong Kong.

I guess you also think China is a democratic country.

No Cantonese has asked Cantonese to be a national language. Cantonese just want to preserve it as a regional language.

There is a baseline - we can use and write in Mandarin but you should allow people to speak and write Cantonese in Cantonese area.

What Mandarin Chauvinist want is to dilute down the Cantonese grammar/vocabulary/phonetics with Mandarin. Shameless.

This is not 5 thousands years ago This is 21 st century where diversity should be appreciated.

[GreenArrow45]

My impression about HK is based primarily on things like the OP's comments. Though I will admit, the time I spent in HK, if I couldn't speak Canto (which I can't) the easiest way to communicate was in English as many people's Mandarin was unintelligible or non-existent.

As to America, the colonisation is certainly true about its early history (1600s and 1700s) and while we shouldn't ignore the near-eradication of Native Americans...my point was more directed at modern day America, which, I'd argue for the past century has very much been an English speaking country. I don't know a whole lot about immigration statistics, but, it is my understanding that most Hispanics have gone to the U.S. in the past 30 years, so, as such, I feel that they are knowingly moving to a predominantly English-speaking country. As opposed to HK, whose people didn't willingly become part of Mainland China.

But like I said, this is just an impression from an outsider - so most of my information regarding this topic comes from people's threads such as this one, the occasional article, or limited amounts of time in HK. Not the best of sources I'll admit.

[green40]

My impression about HK is based primarily on things like the OP's comments. Though I will admit, the time I spent in HK, if I couldn't speak Canto (which I can't) the easiest way to communicate was in English as many people's Mandarin was unintelligible or non-existent.

As to America, the colonisation is certainly true about its early history (1600s and 1700s) and while we shouldn't ignore the near-eradication of Native Americans...my point was more directed at modern day America, which, I'd argue for the past century has very much been an English speaking country. I don't know a whole lot about immigration statistics, but, it is my understanding that most Hispanics have gone to the U.S. in the past 30 years, so, as such, I feel that they are knowingly moving to a predominantly English-speaking country. As opposed to HK, whose people didn't willingly become part of Mainland China.

But like I said, this is just an impression from an outsider - so most of my information regarding this topic comes from people's threads such as this one, the occasional article, or limited amounts of time in HK. Not the best of sources I'll admit.

When discussing the tyranny of Tibet and Uighur, Chinese nationalists love using the example of American colonialism and justify their own wrongdoing.

Even when discussing the problem of Cantonese(which does NOT affect sovereignty at all), these Chinese nationalists still said France/America/Britain had done that before therefore it is not wrong for China to do that. Other had done that. Therefore China is not wrong for doing the same thing.

What's more shameful is Cantonese grammar and vocabulary are also derived from ancient Chinese literature. They are killing their own culture, This is like what they did in Cultural Revolution.

[green40]

Mandarin speakers will never admit the suppression of Cantonese.

They will always say your data isn't enough. Your news is just a/an separated/isolated/occasionally case.

Or if you have enough data, then you are a separatist. B)

Anyway, I admit that ten pages powerpoint isn't enough.

I will make a hundred pages.

I am going to make this hundred pages before the government start discussing the implementation of Article 23.

I afraid that I will be arrested if I do it after Article 23 has passed.

Last time, there was an essay on 163.com with the title "Mandarin is a backward language"

and it got deleted. I read that essay and it has nothing to do with CPC.

HK Pro-Beijing newspaper criticizes "pro-Cantonese(language)" demonstration is a challenge of the rule of CPC.

I am so afraid that people will be arrested in future just protecting Cantonese.

[atitarev]

I am comfortable with the current position that there is no official acknowledgement in Hong Kong that written Cantonese has its own place.

I disagree that written Cantonese should be taught in school. I think that standard Chinese should be the written language in Hong Kong. I can't offer further reasons other than that this is my personal opinion. And I am just an ordinary local in Hong Kong and do not have much specialised knowledge in Chinese or Cantonese (except that I can use them without difficulties) so perhaps you should not take my opinions too seriously.

Mandarin = Standard (formal) Chinese. Most Hong Kong newspapers are written in Mandarin, why would foreigners worry about Cantonese not being promoted if many HK'ers are not so worried and nobody is demanding the switch to vernacular Cantonese in formal writings? Your position is similar to other languages/dialects where diglossia is present, even more so because Mandarin is not just a standard language. Isn't Cantonese is a spoken language/dialect? It enjoys a much higher status than other Chinese dialects, anyway.

As for the demonisation, it's exaggerated:

Mandarin or Cantonese: Where's the debate?

Some current debates over preserving local languages in the West should not be confused with China's situation. China's strength is its progress to ever increasing unity while respecting important local differences. The Chinese authorities are not seeking to restrict the use of any local dialect.

Last week the Guangzhou city government reiterated that there were no plans for the "universal abolition of Cantonese" and that the municipal government had no policies to "repeal Cantonese" or "weaken Cantonese". Local dialects should be preserved and encouraged so long as they do not create barriers to communication.

Communication of the intentions may well be the real problem. The Cantonese speakers have either not understood the goals of the initiative or have read too much into it. Hopefully as matters are clarified, the true benefits of the policy will be clear. And foreigners should certainly welcome it.