English Bandits in Hong Kong (Link in Cantonese)

[parasite]

Some people have a really bad time trying to use Chinese once they learn it because Chinese people tend to be extremely presumptuous about what language communications with foreigners should happen in if they know any English at all. (IMHO)

I have taken much interest in this topic for a while, because being used and abused at the hands of people who (in my opinion) thought my white skin meant I 'owed it to them' to teach them English any time they liked, caused my life to be absolutely miserable for the 3 years I spent in Shanghai.

I present for you all a very interesting forum thread written by a Japanese fellow who desperately wanted to learn Cantonese in Hong Kong, and suffered and was miserable just like I was because no one would speak it with him:

http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?4,94784

I really feel for this guy. It really surprised me to see that someone had almost the exact same thoughts and feelings I did -- but yet was not even a native English speaker!

[Chinadoog]

From my experience in Chengdu, it's easy to find people who want to speak Chinese with a foreigner. Most Chinese people can't even speak English, and a lot of the people who can speak a bit are maybe a bit shy and feel more comfortable speaking Chinese. And then there are the people who think it's cool to hear a foreigner speak Chinese, because most Chinese people haven't had much interaction with foreigners.

I have about 30 of my former students on my QQ, and the majority of them would rather use Chinese than English when we chat.

I've never met a Chinese person who refused to speak to my in Chinese. And I've never met a Chinese person who expected me to teach them anything (other than my students).

[gougou]

(Taking this over from the other thread as it seems more fitting in here)

but is it wrong to feel unhappy about being taken advantage of

I think that's a natural reaction that many of us will have once in a while in China. But if you stop thinking about it as "being taken advantage of" and start thinking of it as "helping somebody to practice a language they barely ever have a chance using" it feels much better already.

When you're in China, you have plenty of opportunities to speak Chinese. There's 1.3 billion people that can speak it, a large majority of which would be happy to use it with you. The guy you meet in the bar might have the opportunity to talk to a foreigner once a year only (depending on what kind of bar it is...). With many Chinese being crazy about learning English at the moment, he's very eager to take that chance - and with you having plenty of opportunities, but him only having that one, it might be the right choice to indulge him. (Otherwise, wouldn't you be the Chinese bandit? There are no rules saying that two people from two different countries should speak Chinese just because they're in China, English is after all the international language)

I agree with it depending on your social circle -- but not all of us are born social butterflies.

I wasn't much of an outgoing person when I first came to China, either, but actually China is a great country to change that. Many people are very curious about your country and can't wait to talk to you; all it needs is for you to initate conversation. Try going to a park for instance, and sit down to an old lady. More likely than not, she won't know any English, and she'd probably be interested in talking to you, too. Just strike up a conversation about "how it's really hot today" and see where it goes.

Assuming you have other hobbies besides going to bars ;) , you could also try to find Chinese clubs that are devoted to these hobbies. Chances are that many of the people there would be excited to talk to you in Chinese. I've found that even a lot of the people that started talking to me in English were relieved when they found out that I could speak Chinese.

[Brian US]

I agree with gougou that China is a great place to come for us shy people to open up. Yet, the fact that I moved from my hometown of 40,000 people to a city of millions might have something to do with it. Every conversation with strangers has started off friendly, except for a few non-Chinese who are very eager to express their views on every American.

Outside of campus I only come across the bubbly sales person that shouts "Let's go!" to lead me to their wares. I've only met one cab driver that spoke limited English to me. One thing that threw me off this week while exchanging money at the bank, a bank rep came over for some small talk in a perfect American accent. These incidents are so few that I don't mind rewarding their bravery for a moment.

[wannabeafreak]

I think that's a natural reaction that many of us will have once in a while in China. But if you stop thinking about it as "being taken advantage of" and start thinking of it as "helping somebody to practice a language they barely ever have a chance using" it feels much better already.

Why should westerners be obliged to help somebody practice English. Time is money and something that could be easily used to improve one's own language skill. This is one of the reasons I never bothered with this language exchange practice. I would rather spend 2000hrs in Chinese over 1800hrs English / 200hrs Chinese, which most of them tend to be unevenly proportioned to the English side.

Also, speaking to a guy on the streets for 5 minutes to (HELP) him practice a language that he barely ever uses is simply not going to do jack all for him and is simply a waste of one's own time to spend it.

Now look at this Chinese guy Félix from Belgique. He has only ever had 5 English conversations in his entire life, and is totally FLUENT and excellent:

So these English bandits (which do exist in Hong Kong) are simply wasting their times... the government and schools have taught people to practice English with anyone and everyone, but in reality does it actually work? Félix is a perfectly good example that you don't even need to speak English to be fluent in English!

[roddy]

Can't you just turn that right around and ask why Chinese people are obliged to help foreigners practice Chinese? That five minutes isn't going to be any more valuable to you than it is to him.

[GreenArrow45]

I think part of the problem with "English-Bandits" that you're experiencing is due to you being in cities with large numbers of tourists and other foreigners who hardly speak the native language (Shanghainese, Cantonese, Mandarin, etc). So, from this, many Chinese might assume that it is perfectly OK to go up to you and practice something.

I once had a guy in Japan stop me because he was going to Karaoke that night with some friends and wanted my help with the pronunciation of some of the lyrics. I was more than happy to help him as for all I know it was some important meeting that he wanted to show off his English in. At the same time, I find it frustrating if someone comes up to me and the only things they know how to say are "Hello" and "How are you" (or something like that). Just the same, if I were Chinese, I would find it to be quite bothersome if a foreigner approached me and all he could say was 你好 or 再见.

So my general rule nowadays is, if they seem to want to discuss something rather than practicing their Hellos, I'm OK with it so long as I'm not pressed for time. However, the Hello-ers I just ignore.

[Meng Lelan]

Can't you just turn that right around and ask why Chinese people are obliged to help foreigners practice Chinese?

No, because it's not worth the time it takes to turn around and get engaged in a worthless conversation. I would shut off my hearing aids and go on with what I need to be doing at the moment.

[renzhe]

Things may be different in China (where Europeans are still rather exotic in many places), so take this with a grain of salt, but I think that your fluency in their language plays a large role.

When I first arrived in Germany, my German was rubbish, and I could barely hold a conversation. I felt much like many posters here -- people all wanted to practice English all day long. I'm not a native speaker, but as soon as I let on that I had arrived from studying in the UK, every student wanted to practice English. As soon as I stumbled in German, they would grab the opportunity and switch to English, and it was game over. They never spoke anything but English to me ever again. They had two options -- be my German language partner and help me practice (leading to bad conversations), or using me as a language exchange and practicing English (leading to much better conversations, as most of them had decent English). I learned VERY quickly to NEVER utter a word in English, EVER, unless I was willing to talk English to that person for the rest of my life.

Funnily, the thing changed as I became completely fluent in German. Now people AVOID speaking English with me. People with university degrees, who can speak English just fine and hold talks at international conferences. They will switch languages on me. I think that it's a face issue. Now the options are different -- we can have a perfectly good conversation in either language, but if we use German, I will look bad, and if we use English, they will look bad. A very similar thing happened with my girlfriend (Chinese native speaker), whose university has an exchange program with a Chinese university. Several of her colleagues went to China and learned Chinese there. They NEVER speak Chinese to her. They find other students to practice Chinese with, and insist on German in other situations. Clearly a face issue.

Now, as a European or American in China, you have a huge neon sign over your head shouting "foreigner", so it's probably not the same, but I have also found that, as my Chinese increased, people became more inclined to talk Chinese to me, just like it was the case before with German. So I think that a large part of this annoying "let me practice NOW!" phenomenon is caused by the inability to communicate fluently. I expect that if you can actually use Chinese completely fluently and confidently make it clear right off the bat, people will speak Chinese to you. A lot of the time, people switch languages because of the frustration with your Chinese level, or (also important!!!) their frustration with what they THINK your Chinese level will be based on their prejudice. The problem is, of course, that you need practice to become this good, but like others have written, there are many opportunities to do this in China.

[gato]

I agree with renzhe. I doubt someone like Da Shan (大山) would have a problem with people wanting to practice English with him instead of speaking to him in Chinese. Someone want to ask him that?

[skylee]

I expect that if you can actually use Chinese completely fluently and confidently make it clear right off the bat, people will speak Chinese to you. A lot of the time, people switch languages because of the frustration with your Chinese level,

Very true. I agree.

[wushijiao]

Now, as a European or American in China, you have a huge neon sign over your head shouting "foreigner", so it's probably not the same, but I have also found that, as my Chinese increased, people became more inclined to talk Chinese to me, just like it was the case before with German.

This also describes my experience with Mandarin, (and to a large extent) Spanish. As far as Cantonese, I haven't seem to have reached the threshold in which people start speaking mainly in Cantonese, or at least in most situations.

[Meng Lelan]

I agree with renzhe. I doubt someone like Da Shan (大山) would have a problem with people wanting to practice English with him instead of speaking to him in Chinese. Someone want to ask him that?

That is a very, very good point. Thank you for your excellent insight.