Acquiring a Proper Pronunciation - What do you think?

[barcelona]

As recommended on another thread i'm going through The Chinese Outpost site.

Here is an interesting bit of advice:

"..Even sound files or tapes can't teach you to make the sounds that challenge you most, perhaps how to twist your tongue and cheeks to differentiate between xi and shi, or between chu and qu.

No, you'll need a coach.

.. Look for a coach who can explain in clear terms and show you what you need to do with your speech organs to make each sound properly, such as where your tongue should go, and whether your lips should be tight or relaxed. If a person cannot do that, that person cannot teach pronunciation effectively..."

(more can be found here

http://www.chineseoutpost.com/language/pronunciation/

This is one of my concerns in taking the self-study route: How does one know s/he recreates properly all the sounds one hears on tapes?

What was your way to ensure you're learning the right way?

[ChouDoufu]

having a coach is the best way. And they should have had training in how to properly pronounce a sound. It's a skill that children pick up naturally, but adults have to study and practice to learn. If you don't have a coach, a book with pictures of your tongue positions and mouth shape would be helpful but not early as good as a coach. It's a long process to fix pronunciation. I used to literally walk down the street practicing in order to improve..

[heianderen]

having a coach is the best way.

I agree with you ChouDoufu. Barcelona, recording your own voice can also help.

I used to literally walk down the street practicing in order to improve.

I used to do the same thing, I thought I was the only one who was so crazy.

[michaelm]

I think this is such an important point that I wish somebody would have given me some advice when I started studying (German) in high school.

I try lots of different things to improve my pronunciation, but, the common theme among all of them is to be very conscientious about pronunciation.

After studying German for years and being able to communicate with other Americans studying German, I went to Germany and found even the simple words, when I said them, couldn't be understood.

Now, in China, I here some other foreigners make fun of people who try to pronounce the tones correctly, saying 'don't think about it so much. just talk.'

I think this is absolutely wrong and hinders improvement. You can communicate without paying too much attention to tones 'Ni Hao' 'Xie xie' and so on and, if you're a foreigner, you might even gets lots of praise.

But, if you want to improve, it's important to be careful and start slow.

Can anyone relate?

www.thekungpaochicken.com

[ExpatObserver]

I began studying putonghua about 6 weeks ago. I have a laoshi whom I meet once a week for an hour and a half. She has a Master's dgree in education with teaching Chinese as a second language as major. Honestly she doesn't insists on correct tones all the time but just repeats a phrase if I mispronounce it and I try and pronounce it just the way she says. I think a loashi is advisable. Mine certainly has helped me to the extent that when I go local grocery shop run by Chninese, they think I come from China.

I also practice with two other people an hour a week each asn a language exchange. Still I have a long way to go.

[woodcutter]

A lot of people (and scientific bigwigs) seem to believe that children have magical language learning powers. I don't believe it. If you learn with your ears, as they do, rather than mentally filtering marks on a page into their closest representation in your own language, you can pronounce as well as children can.

Which isn't to say I am great myself, but I didn't follow my own advice, because it is an inconvenient way to learn.

[ChouDoufu]

I disagree with woodchopper. Try learning the basic grammar and pronunciation of a language just by listening to it without anyone explaining any aspect of it. Add on the fact that your brain is hardly developed when you're doing this. If it wasn't a magical ability, adult with a more developed brain should be able to learn a language in months (if kids can learn it in their first two years).

Regardless, here's what the "scientific bigwigs" have to say about how Children break the language code.

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/Dynapage.taf?file=/nrn/journal/v5/n11/abs/nrn1533_fs.html

[xuechengfeng]

I do individualized instruction through the school. Meaning, I listen to the tapes, study the dialogs, and figure out how to write on my own. Then I schedule appointments where I have to memorize and recite the dialog to my teacher. They afterwards correct pronunciation, then do drills. So in a sense, I believe you can learn everything on your own except perfect pronunciation and tones.

[woodcutter]

Kids learn the language all day every day, in thought and deed, and are usually helped along with easy input, so the process is pretty darn tough to replicate.

[Yuchi]

Kids in what age range?

[woodcutter]

Kids learning their native language, all kids, all ages.

The article Choudoufu posted kicks off with a good honest "we don't know" you'll notice, before the usual bewildering brain talk.

I don't know either, but I do know that people usually massively underestimate the advantages that kids have over us old fogeys who get in the classroom for a bit of Chinese a couple of hours a week.

[elisabeth_rb]

You do need a teacher and one who knows what s/he is talking about. When I was in first year of Leeds Uni, we had pronunciation correction classes for one hour a week on top of the rest of the classwork. During that time, a Chinese guy taught us where to put our tongues and so on. Since then, I've been able to pass this on to other learners of Chinese, esp since I am now teaching on that course 8 years later! It's just a shame that my old pronunciation teacher is no longer there....=(

[woodcutter]

I'm sorry, my posts have been a little confusing, mixing native speakers and 2nd language learners in together.

I don't know if anyone else here has taught fairly young kids - but in my opinion they suck at language learning for the most part. What they are good at is getting pronunciation down - because they are simply repeating what they hear rather than intellectualizing it. If we can find the time and determination to start from a lot of phonetic work before progressing to anything very interesting I think we can rival them.

Youngish kids also have an advantage learning childish, basic sentences. That is a natural thing for them, and they have no face-saving issues. Basic language is completely accessable for them. So if you meet a six year old who speaks a foreign language pretty well, why be so impressed? Three years of solid study is quite a long time.

[badboy]

I agree with woodcutter on this, especially his point about underestimating the advantages that kids have vs. adults.

For example, in a new country kids will go to school and be able to listen to the new language all day - more often than not someone is talking in a classroom. Whereas the adult has to work at a job that (in most cases) does not involve constant exposure to the new language, for the obvious reason that a lot of work is solitary and does not involve actual speaking.

[ChouDoufu]

this topic seems to be going off-topic, but i'll add my last two cents. Saying kids can only learn simple sentences is a bit too obvious. They can't learn complex ideas in any language bcause they haven't gotten to that point. That doesn't mean their language sucks. It just means they aren't as developed as an adult would be (quite naturally). Kids who have the ability to use language at the same level as adults are usually called geniuses (or at least really smart kids).

[woodcutter]

Kids can only learn simple sentences? That isn't what I said. I said they have an advantage learning basic sentences. They suck at getting grammar down though.

Not really off-topic either, because my point is that you can be as good as them with pronunciation if you go about it in the same way. It's likely you won't have much chance though.