Chinese Gender Roles

[CookieFactory]

Inspired by another thread in this forum, I'm rather curious as to female gender roles among the current 18-30 year old generation.

The "feminist" kick that is so prevalent in Western culture as well as shows such as, "Sex In The City," and artists such like Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera have raised girls who are more comfortable with thier own sexuality, and less afraid to "initiate," with respect to dating and general boy/girl interactions.

What parallels to this exist in China (if any)? What gender roles are prevalent among Chinese girls? How do they view male/female interactions? Does the 1.05: 1.0 male-female ratio have significant influence?

Sub-debate: It is commonly said that females in the USA like rich guys and tall guys. Also a common school of thought is that, "nice guys finish last," and the "badboy" always gets the girl. Now there is some truth to these sayings, girls in Western culture are attracted to "alpha" males who exude confidence and mystery. Are there any similarities in China? China is a bit more "traditional," than the US with respect to male/female dating, but how far does this influence extend?

[wiz_oz]

This could develope into a very interesting thread.

All things (desire for male child, pass on family name etc etc) indicate a bias towards the male. (I am trying to put it the most diplomatic way I could) Yet chinese folklores, history, novels etc are peppered with lots of admirable women. Are the sexes there much more equitable than make out to be?

I do not know much about conditions in China but womens' role in chinese society in Malaysia is quite strong. A white male Australian friend who is married to a chinese actually remarked that in a lot of malaysian-chinese marriages, the women tends to have a lot more say than the men in a lot more things even though the man is the one saying it. (Interpret: He is actually only the spokeperson)

Am looking forward to replies here.

[CBC]

Chinese women have more say in family, but far less successful in their career. Successful busniess women are seen as tough and unapprochable.

Changes in this more open society has influence the way of life of young women in china today. Grils try to get control of the tradition (e.g. less virgins before marriage).

But Chinese are practical than any other society partly because of the harsh life they had over the last 200 years. People want to be rich. A Chinese woman always wants to marry a honest middle class man.

[Tsunku]

I have very few female Chinese friends. The ones I do have are very atypical. There is a reason for this. Maybe I'll get flamed for this, but here goes.

As backwards as it sounds, it is still very common for Chinese girls to place the desires of others ahead of their own, and to have difficulty expressing their own genuine opinions. To some degree, this applies to males as well, although males are allowed much more leeway for rebellion than females in this society.

If I had a dollar for every young pretty Chinese girl I've seen on the arm of a nasty old guy (westerners as well as Chinese) I'd be rich. Of course, you see this in the west too, but again, not to such a degree. There is definitly a stigma attached to dating a "sugar daddy" in the West that simply does not exist in China. Ask many Chinese girls what they find most important in a partner, and carreer/money will be right up there, way ahead of personal happiness, compatibility, or love. By the same token, I have friends in miserable marriages who won't get divorced because of the issue of stability, combined with societal pressures. I was told quite frankly that only "bad" people get divorced, and a divorced woman would be treated as used goods.

My female college students routinely told me that their parents told them what subject to major in, and as a result I had many resentful would be artists or musicians in my classes pretending to study English. I am told by my male Chinese friends, (and my Chinese ex-boyfriend) that a good Chinese girl is quiet and well behaved. My ex frequently got frustrated because when we had disagreements, I expected to have an equal voice. Why didn't I just shut up already? A surprising amount of relationships are abusive. Some Chinese males talk about slapping around their girlfriends as if they were discussing the weather.

I've been told: a good girl doesn't drink, smoke, or stay out any later than 12. If a girl is too educated, too wealthy, or too successful, she will have a hard time finding a boyfriend because no Chinese male wants to lose face by dating "above" himself. Many intelligent Chinese girls find they must play dumb in order to make themselves attractive to a guy. Furthermore my western male friends who have dated Chinese girls complain that they seem not to understand that they can actually enjoy sex, rather than simply treating it as a chore, or a duty they must perform.

Bear in mind, this applies mostly to mainland Chinese girls from run of the mill cities and towns. I've met some Beijing girls who are just as open minded and adventurous as American college girls. Shanghai and Hong Kong are another story. But if you look at the average Chinese girl from a place like Kunming, where I live, the traditional values, sadly, still run really strong. Are there exceptions? Sure. And things are also changing, but many of the changes are superficial. It is easy to go out to a disco at night, even here in Kunming, and be fooled into thinking "wow, attitudes are really changing! look at what she's wearing! look at the way she's dancing! hey, she's practically screwing that guy over there in the corner!" However, the attitudes about what a woman should and shouldn't be are really deeply ingrained, and the changes are a lot more slow in coming than you'd be tempted to think.

[amperel]

Tsunku is right. And I won't call Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera "artists"

[geek_frappa]

wait... Christina Aguilera is a trained musician with a magnificent voice.

brittany is NOT. in fact, brittany's voice without any amplifier is pretty hard to listen to. however, brittany appears to be more heavily promoted for some strange reason... no clue why.

[skylee]

g_f, it is Britney.

[ABCinChina]

Bump. I agree with what CookieFactory is saying here. Two totally different cultures which took me a while to adjust to. I've come to think that China girls are much more feminine than their Chinese-American counter-parts which has both advantages and disadvantages depending on what you like in a woman. The "alpha-male" type always wins in the US while the "nice-guy" always wins in China. Just my 2¢...

[outcast]

I am told by my male Chinese friends, (and my Chinese ex-boyfriend) that a good Chinese girl is quiet and well behaved. My ex frequently got frustrated because when we had disagreements, I expected to have an equal voice. Why didn't I just shut up already? A surprising amount of relationships are abusive. Some Chinese males talk about slapping around their girlfriends as if they were discussing the weather.

Most chinese men are evil, and this proves it without a doubt.

[imron]

Well, there we have it folks, before it was in doubt, but now thanks to a post on an internet forum from four years ago, we have ironclad, conclusive proof that half a billion people are evil Isn't it nice to live in world where everything is so black and white.

[outcast]

Are you seriously defending them? "A surprising amount" is usually indicative of a number far larger than expected. How can you defend this?

[roddy]

Is it all men you have an issue with, or just the Chinese ones? As I recall you were asking what to do about public wife-beating before you even got to China. If you were coming up with something vaguely logical (wife-beating is evil) you'd be easier to take seriously, but 'most Chinese men are evil' is just daft. And you need to tell the Pope or someone, not the Internet.

[imron]

Are you seriously defending them?

Who are they? I certainly wouldn't defend anyone who beats their wife/girlfriend, whether they were Chinese or otherwise, but I know enough Chinese males who don't treat their wifes/girlfriends like that to know that a statement like "most Chinese men are evil" is pure rubbish.

How can you defend this?

I'm defending all my Chinese friends who aren't like this, but get caught up in your generalisation and over-simplification of the issue.

"A surprising amount" is usually indicative of a number far larger than expected.

It's also a completely subjective measure. Surprising to me and surprising to you will be different things, and both will likely be different to what the original poster of that statement thinks. Not to mention you could say exactly the same statement about relationships from any country. China certainly doesn't have a monopoly on domestic violence.

[Jacob]

Well, I don't want to get in that whole wife beating discussion, but, before going to China last summer, I had never seen a man hit a woman. Over the course de 3 month, I saw that three time, in different cities.

First instance was seeing a group of young people, about 20-25 of age, hanging around. They were a couple of guys and gals. Two of them, a boy and a girl, seemed to have a pretty loud argument, and then out of nowhere the guy grabs the girl by the hair and just slaps her silly in the face. The other people in the group didn't look concerned.

The second time I saw that, was just outside Beijing's railway's station. If you've been there, maybe you remember the gals advertising the hotels with their little board with photos of hotel room and price range. Well, there was this fellow, who looked like an advertiser himself, maybe the boss, that got in a argument with one of the girls and started slapping her on the head with a fan, in a japanese cartoon like fashion.

Third time, a pimp and a prostitutue. Slapping and yelling and forceful removal of cab.

Now, I'm not saying that that is the norm in China, and God knows there's a lot more people in China than in my humble province of Canada, so more stuff happens, but it came quite a shock to my virgin eyes (And I won't make a list of everything that I saw, but it includes man servicing man in public, people vomiting on people, just dreadful car accidents and absurd amount of prostitutes)

(sh) But I might as well mention that the violence goes the other way too... I also saw girls hurling bottles at boys, or kicking them in the crotch.

Those 酒吧 are really 坏 places!

-Jacob

P.S. The views reflected by Jacob on what he saw in China does not constitute a moral judgement or critic of Chinese society. The positive, wonderful and marvelous things that he saw over there greatly outnumbers the traumatising experiences expressed previously. Have a pleasant day !

[outcast]

Who are they? I certainly wouldn't defend anyone who beats their wife/girlfriend, whether they were Chinese or otherwise, but I know enough Chinese males who don't treat their wifes/girlfriends like that to know that a statement like "most Chinese men are evil" is pure rubbish.

But problem isn't just the ones who do that, it is also the ones who condone it, either through inaction or actually think it is ok. The ones who do treat their wives/girlfriends this do count on the others to be that way.

China certainly doesn't have a monopoly on domestic violence.

True, but at least in certain other countries there actually are attempts being made to stop this kind of thing.

I'm defending all my Chinese friends who aren't like this, but get caught up in your generalisation and over-simplification of the issue.

I will admit that it is somewhat generalized, but when they do these things, or see them and do nothing, that kind of paints chinese men in general in a pretty bad light doesn't it? A very large percentage of them CHOSE to be this way, they CHOOSE to treat their girls, and they CHOOSE to do nothing when they see it. They darned themselves to this.

Of course I recognize all of them are not this way, I know several who are not. However, too many are this way, even just as a percentage it is still far too many, and that casts a very long shadow on the rest.

EDIT: And this isn't about one culture vs. another, this is about making people's lives better and creating a better world.

Edited November 15, 2008 at 10:09 AM by outcast

[gerri]

Sounds like we are having a slapdown right on this board.

I've only been here two+ months, and I'm on a university campus, so some things may be different...

Still, compared to what you hear about, such as "no dating on a campus, no shows of affection" there are enough couples about. Also, it seems to be the expectation that you find somebody soon enough - more or less, during college years, not to be "leftovers."

(As a friend of mine with tons of experience with China pointed out to me, I can hardly fit in... a 30-year old guy who is not married?)

In the language department where I teach, the vast majority of students is female, so that also makes for my impressions to be a bit different. Where male/female friends is concerned, for example, it looks like I'll soon have a few female friends. Having read that weird thread on the Chinese wife who's "insanely jealous," I do wonder if time spent together sightseeing and chatting immediately translates into a romantic advance. - If so, I would have to say that there are some women here who are pretty forward.

(Any thoughts on that by somebody with more experience in China?)

(Certainly, it's much more common here than anywhere else I've been so far - I'd even include Latin America - to comment on somebody's looks!)

Inquiries about one's relationship status - like those about income, etc. - are no problem, either (though interestingly, a colleague of mine found that he is first asked whether he had a girlfriend back home or not, and then whether he liked Chinese girls - I'm asked the first one, immediately followed by whether or not I had a Chinese girlfriend...).

Sex is quite a fascinating issue (no innuendo intended): It seems that they do have quite a bit of knowledge of what things are like in the West (yes, admittedly, including the "knowledge" you gain from you-know-which magazines and AV; and I'm not talking about practical knowledge - I couldn't comment on that, and I wouldn't, for that matter), but opinions diverge... To some, it's something they don't really want to even hear anything about because they are traditional, some have commented that their parents would probably disavow them if they found what they may be reading because it's for language studies...

One point they were pretty clear on: When we read a story where the husband just so told the wife to shut her trap and do as she is told, and I (trying to test their understanding) suggested that a morale of the story might be that it's supposed to be this way, the response was that this is clearly not the way it's supposed to be, nor even the way it is... The women were the ones who decide...

[Jacob]

"The women were the ones who decide... "

When I started learning chinese, we asked the teacher about chinese jokes, and if he could tell us one.

" Well there was a boss of a big company, that was looking for a new VP, so he called up his 10 best employees to his office, and made them stand in line in front of him. He then asked :

-Everybody, I am looking for a VP to assist me in the decision making process for the future expansion of this company. Every one of you are brilliant and great employees, but I can only choose one, the one showing the most gut. Whoever here is afraid to disobey or disagree with his wife, please take a step back.

So the employees look at each other, and 9 of them take a step back, lowering their heads.

The boss then smiled and went to talk with the one that didn't budge :

-Congratulation young lad, you are our company's newest VP! But please tell me, where do you find the courage to disobey your wife?

The employee then answered :

-Oh! Well... I didn't take a step back not because I am not afraid of her wrath, but... simply because I didn't have the chance to call her to ask her if I could take a step back."

Our teacher then went on telling us that Chinese women are born with a whip in hand!

[Lu]

Wait, didn't we already have this discussion? Started off with the exact same line, as I recall: All Chinese men are evil. (This is false, by the way: I personally know a few good ones.) Can we maybe dig up the existing thread and continue the discussion there (or find it closed over an overheated argument, and decide not to repeat it)?

[outcast]

All Chinese men are evil. (This is false, by the way: I personally know a few good ones.

I didn't say all, I said most. There is a big difference.

[imron]

So are you talking more like 51% or more like 80-90%? (Bearing in mind every 1% is approximately 6.5 million men).