Does Correct Intonation Really Matter That Much?

[PollyWaffle]

Well, yes of course it does if you wanna be as annoying as Dashan.

Apart from correct intonation my pronunciation is quite standard. I really wish I could remember tones but I find it impossible, or if I do remember I say it wrong anyway. But I have never really cared if my tones were correct or not. I figure people speak in sentences not single words, so..... Plus I rarely encounter a problem with people understanding what I am saying.

Anyway, after being dressed down by my teacher today & treated like a child in front of the class, I thougth I'd seek others opinions.

[skylee]

I'd say yes. It is especially so if you speak Cantonese. As to "being dressed down by teacher", I think that one has a teacher or attends classes basically because one wants to learn things correctly. And hey, cheer up.

[Quest]

It matters if you want to sound like the natives, and it does not matter if you just want yourself understood by others.

I am sure you could answer the question yourself

The tones are something you have to learn and remember when you learn to pronounce a new character. I think it would be very difficult to come back later to relearn/re-associate all the tones with thousands of characters.

[roddy]

I've kind of changed my mind on this over the last year. I think when you are starting it's foolish to get hung up on tones and let them hold you back - you need to be learning how to function in Chinese, not to sound like you just stepped out of elecution class. And generally, when you are starting, Chinese people are amazed that you speak at all.

However, I think once you get up to intermediate or above, and start using Chinese in more complex situations the tones become much more important - both for sounding 'better' (which I think is important - you can't rely on other people being patient enough to listen to you murder their language) and because the more complex situations you'll deal with require more phonological accuracy.

I still hold that in most situations, a patient listener will be able to work around any tonal problems. However, you can't rely on your listeners' patience.

This is what I'm trying to fix just now. It's not fun.

On a related note: which kind of foreign Chinese learner do you find most annoying (largely asking Chinese speakers here, but anyone can join in)?

Type A) No tones, talks relatively quickly.

Type B) Perfect tones, but stops and starts to think about them

I've met both, and much prefer listening to A, and this is certainly the type I am now.

Roddy

[PollyWaffle]

And hey, cheer up.

thanx! i think i'll live.

I am sure you could answer the question yourself

i think i did.

I think it would be very difficult to come back later to relearn/re-associate all the tones with thousands of characters.

you're exactly right!!

so, the question is now, how to correct the bad habits? listening to tapes constantly?! sitting with someone who is going to stop me every 5 seconds to correct my tones is just too annoying to think about...

[xuechengfeng]

sorry to sidetrack, Polly, but who said "see you in the funny pages?" I just heard this a few days ago, and it will bug me if I don't know.

Just so I don't completely take away from the thread, uh, uh.. I think a mix of what roddy said is good advice, don't be a person who speaks a mile a minute with no tones, but don't sit there and think about every tone's word.

Unfortunately for you, I think the only way to correct it is to drill yourself and listen to tapes or listen to everyday conversation.

[PollyWaffle]

who said "see you in the funny pages?"

dunno, i thought it was just a sarcastic saying... it's a queers song & is also in the movie 'o brother where art thou?' when john goodman kicks @#$# outa them & steals their money...

[ChouDoufu]

I disagree with Roddy. I think you have to start out thinking about getting tones right. It all helps with one's conception of tones. I'm at a point where my tones are pretty good; there are always mistakes, but I can tell as soon as the word comes out of my mouth that the tone is wrong and am able to correct myself. I think you should definitely work on tones, it's part of the language and I find it extremely difficult to communicate certain words if you have the tones wrong. THe people I met (especially travelling) don't get it and I end up spending 10 minutes trying to explain it before they do.

I hate listening to student A. I'd prefer student B any day.

[Tsunku]

I'm kinda with Roddy. I used to think that tones were overrated, and to some degree I still think so, but as you get more advanced, they do become more important. As you build your vocabulary, it becomes harder for the listener to figure out what you're trying to say without the correct tones. In the beginning though, you're going for communication, and you're not going to sound like a native speaker anyhow, so if you're understood, that's great. I know a Japanese guy who, after a year, STILL pronounces the "shi" sound like "shee" and somehow manages to be undersood.

However, I definitly prefer speed over tonal accuracy. I just can't be bothered to slow down my conversations to the point needed to get the tones right all the time. I also agree that it is painful to listen to the foreign speakers who insist on correct tone-age and speak too slowly as a result. I speak at a relatively normal pace, and my tones might not be perfect, but I can carry on a conversation that is natural and not stilted. I think my tones are getting better (in part from increased exposure to real putonghua via a dongfang significant other, and not the dialect they speak here, which tends to turn almost all tones into fourth tone regardless), but I don't really stress about it too much because I rarely find that people don't understand me.

The way I've gone about correcting my tones is just simple imitation. I don't have time to spend painstakingly going over every word, nor do I have the inclination to do so, but when I hear the correct pronounciation from others, I try and remember it and repeat it next time. Copycat-ing my friends has helped a lot more than I would have thought, and my pronounciation is a lot better than it was before, to the point that people have actually noticed the improvement. So good luck, and don't stress too much.

[roddy]

Actually, I missed something out there. What I should also have said is that if you are intending to study long term, it's worth spending the extra time on tones when you start - even if you can't pronounce them, learning to recognise them and know which phrases have which tone patterns will be of massive use when you come to actually be able to use them. Don't do what I did and ignore them altogether.

If you know you will only be studying for a year or so, I would skip them.

As for correcting 'Lazy Tone Syndrome', that's the tough one. Going back to all the simple vocabulary and learning the tones for it is pretty depressing - back to square one - but I'm not sure there's any other way . . .

Roddy

[PollyWaffle]

I think you have to start out thinking about getting tones right.

you are right, i wish i had done that... but my first teacher was just a regular guy who let me say things however i wanted so 'apparently' i sound like a dongbei ren with all the wrong tones... i disagree tho, i think i speak chinese with english emotional inflections... even when i know the correct tones...

I know a Japanese guy who, after a year, STILL pronounces the "shi" sound like "shee"

most japanese pronounce words incorrectly, BUT they get the correct tones for the most part... so, which is worse???? my problem or theirs?

Going back to all the simple vocabulary and learning the tones for it is pretty depressing - back to square one - but I'm not sure there's any other way . . .

extremely depressing!!!! but there isn't any other way, apart from modelling/imitation... a combination of both... i just spent 2 hours studying simple pronunciation... if i can do half an hour a day i hope i can improve in a month... just don't know where i'll find half an hour a day...

[michaelm]

I never thought I'd be doing this, but I gotta stick up for my man Dashan. I don't think he deserves to be called annoying.

Fact is, he speaks good Chinese, something I think many of us (I do) aspire to do. You certainly can't hold it against him that he pronounces words well.

I know that calling Dashan annoying wasn't malicious or anything, so no harm done.

Regarding this thread, are any of you guys teachers? I am, and I certainly prefer it when my students try to speak carefully and correctly instead of when they try to impress me by speaking too quickly. Also, I understand them better.

The more I study languages, the more I believe that being very conscientious about the details from the beginning will not only contribute to one's success, but also will make a better impression on native speakers one speaks to.

[wix]

One useful technique when learning is to move your hand while pronouncing new words. e.g. move the hand in a high flat movement for the first tone, upwards for the second tone, etc. I know this technique is used at TLI in Taiwan but I don't know if it has ever caught on in China.

[roddy]

I don't know if it has ever caught on in China.

Caught on? Christ, I can't stop doing it. Between the hands, the eyebrows and the nodding, anytime I do get my tones right people assume I'm having some kind of seizure

Roddy

[BFC_Peter]

If you consider the reason we learn Chinese (or any other language), we want to communicate with people, being totally committed to the rules of the language is secondary on my priority list - mainly because I am impatient!

I am an English speaker so it's a frustratingly slow process for me, after 18 months I can probably say a few simple greetings etc to my wife's family but that's about it. I desperately want to be able to say more, and am very frustrated by how long it's taking me to get to that position

Obviously, I am aware about the different tones and I practise getting them right but I'm happy that this aspect of my speaking will improve more later, I'd rather be in a position to communicate with more people sooner - I hope they feel that way too.

Funnily enough, when my wife speaks English she wants to get it 100% correct, whereas I'm just happy that I can understand what she's telling me

[HashiriKata]

Regarding this thread, are any of you guys teachers? I am, and I certainly prefer it when my students try to speak carefully and correctly instead of when they try to impress me by speaking too quickly. Also, I understand them better.

The more I study languages, the more I believe that being very conscientious about the details from the beginning will not only contribute to one's success, but also will make a better impression on native speakers one speaks to.

I'm completely with michaelm on this. I think if we're serious about learning a language, there's no need to rush over the foundation, as it'll become a real problem at a later stage, since it's always easier to learn new things than to correct old habits.

Yes, people would still understand us even if we don't speak correctly at the beginning stage. At more advanced stages, their expectation of you and your expectation of yourself will inevitably change; and that is when you feel the problem (and it's not an escapable one!). It's however still not too late for you to try to relearn with determination to get the tones right.

[CBC]

not at all. You speak with the same tone all the time people can still understand.

[xuechengfeng]

One useful technique when learning is to move your hand while pronouncing new words. e.g. move the hand in a high flat movement for the first tone, upwards for the second tone, etc. I know this technique is used at TLI in Taiwan but I don't know if it has ever caught on in China.

Yes, very good method, worked well for me. However, I have tried to tone it down (no pun intended) when talking now. I have tried to switch from what roddy described, as seizure like movements, into holding something like a pen, or using my finger so it's not as noticeable.

[wushijiao]

Like Roddy and Tsunku, I have also changed my mind about this recently. I used to be be of the "the tones can go to hell" camp, because I realised that if your pronunciation is good otherwise and you give a lot of context in your sentences, chinese people will almost always understand.

But, tones become very important, I think, when doing more advanced listenings. Especially, in my opinion, when you hear southerners speak putonghua and shi and si are the same and zhi znd zi are the same (shang and sang...etc). Look in your dictionary. There are a ton of characters that are shi. Once people say them as si there are even more possibilties, and you can no longer rely on pronounciation of the word as the sole factor of recognition in listening. You have to use tones.

[LiYuanXi]

Ooops I am one of those southerners that speak Si instead of shi and zi instead of zhi. I tried to change but everybody look at me like i'm a freak. Sorry to confuse you, wushijiao!