taiwan, shang hai, beijing

[skyblue]

where should i go to study chinese?

where are the people most polite?

[jbradfor]

I doubt you will get many answers with such a vague question.... but I look forward to someone proving me wrong. Read the forums for others' opinions and experiences, post specific questions, and someone will probably reply.

[but to try to add some content so Roddy doesn't delete my post:]

Beijing was recently voted China's most comfortable city. [Taipei was not included....] Interestingly enough, the study was done by Beijing-based Horizonkey. Anyone think this might have skewed the results?

[ma3zi1]

There are polite people in all of those places

If you are an American and you want the least amount of culture shock, go to Taiwan, specifically Taibei. English words are commonly peppered into the Mandarin people speak there. Moreover, many Americans already live in Taiwan and have families there, so it is not uncommon to run into other non-Chinese residents on the streets.

Shanghai is also more accustomed to having foreigners as residents, and you are less likely to be accosted there by peddlers and such if you stay out of the tourist traps. However, Shanghai can be kind of boring if you don't like to go out clubbing and you don't have a lot of money.

Beijing is the most important place culturally, and it is hard to run out of things to do there. There's so many temples and palaces and mountains to climb, that it can be really exciting. However, most foreigners who come to Beijing are tourists, and most of the interesting places to go draw lots of tourists, so expect to be hassled frequently.

[abcdefg]

where are the people most polite?

I'm not sure there is any way to get a meaningful answer to that question.

For example, we have had long threads here about rude waiters in Chinese restaurants that have showed how one person's perception is very different from someone else's.

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/21187-are-chinese-people-really-that-unfriendly-to-foreigners/page__p__171838__hl__rude+waiters__fromsearch__1#comment-171838

It also seems to often be the case that different people bring different flavors of interpersonal experience on themselves. I’ve been in groups where one person complains bitterly that “Everyone treated me so badly in Shanghai” while someone else raves about how friendly and kind everyone there was to him.

[rezaf]

Beijing is the best place to learn standard Mandarin. Taiwan's Mandarin is not really standard and is a more expensive place. Also there are more people in Beijing than in Shanghai who can speak standard Mandarin.

[Lu]

Having lived in both Taipei and Beijing, my opinion is that people in Taipei are more polite. So if that's an important criterium for you, Taiwan is probably a good choice.

Mandarin is the official language of Taiwan, and while some Taiwanese is spoken, mostly everyone speaks Mandarin. While there is no erhua there and little retroflexes, people do speak more clearly than in Beijing, which makes things easier for students.

But yeah, more specific questions would probably help.

[rezaf]

No erhua and no zhi chi shi. :huh: All in all Beijing's Mandarin is much more closer to standard Mandarin. This language is much more understandable with zhi chi shi. The definition of who speaks more clearly depends on where you have studied your Mandarin. If you live and study in Sichuan and you learn Mandarin with Sichuan's accent then it will be more understandable for you than Beijing's Mandarin but it won't make Sichuan's Mandarin the standard Mandarin. Although I live in Shanghai, in the last few years I have communicated with more Taiwanese and Malaysian students than mainland students and I still think that Beijing's Mandarin is much more understandable.

[Outofin]

I think erhua might not be a problem because most people you talk with everyday are new immigrants.

Last time I met with highschool classmates, one said it's hard to have so many Beijingers together. Seeing my confused look, he added, "Just look at the street, no Beijingers." I got it. Most people living in Beijing now weren't in the city 20 years ago.

Among my classmates, there are only a few Old Beijingers, who were born and grew up in hutongs. They're soon becoming a rare spieces.

[Shi Tong]

Can we stop now with the no zhi chi shi argument? It's not even close to being true. The lack of zhi chi shi is actually ALSO considered incorrect pronunciation in Taiwan- tghey call this form of pronunciation "Daiwan goyu" (instead of Taiwan Guoyu) because it's based around old people who speak Taiwanese as their first language and apply bad rules to their Mandarin pronunciation. People laugh at those who cannot pronounce zhi chi shi clearly, which I personally think is cruel, but it's still true.

Standard Mandarin in Taiwan IS taught with zhi chi shi, it's also taught with erhua in some cases- even when the locals are not speaking with erhua.

If you want to learn Putonghua, I'd say that Beijing is your best choice. Taiwanese standard Mandarin is also great, but it does carry a different accent and it quite often uses different vocabulary. So it kind of depends as well where you want to use your Mandarin later on if you want.

I've not been to mainland China, but I'd say Taiwan is a great place to visit- there's a million things to do, and people there are amazingly friendly and always nice.

[Lu]

The definition of who speaks more clearly depends on where you have studied your Mandarin.

I learned my Chinese from mainland teachers in Holland and in the mainland before I ever set foot on Taiwan, and I found that Taiwanese speak more clearly than Beijingnese. They simply are easier to understand. Have you been to Taiwan, and did you really find their Guoyu less clear than the Beijinghua of a real Beijingnese?

The lack of zhi chi shi is actually ALSO considered incorrect pronunciation in Taiwan- they call this form of pronunciation "Daiwan goyu" (instead of Taiwan Guoyu) because it's based around old people who speak Taiwanese as their first language and apply bad rules to their Mandarin pronunciation. People laugh at those who cannot pronounce zhi chi shi clearly, which I personally think is cruel, but it's still true.

There is a little zhi chi shi in Taiwan, but it is less pronounced than in (say) Beijing. You probably wouldn't know this if you have never heard anything else than Guoyu, but if you ever come to the north, you can hear it right away. I also have never heard anyone being laughed at for saying zi ci si. I did have many Taiwanese comment on my Beijing accent when I first got to Taiwan, before I dropped the zhi chi shi and erhua.

Taiwanese teachers of Chinese as a foreign language, however, have absolutely impeccable standard pronunciation. Some even use erhua.

Another issue in Taiwan vs Mainland is whether you want to learn traditional (TW) or simplified (mainland) characters. In the end, a big factor is what you want to use Chinese for, and who you want to talk to.

[rezaf]

All of my hua ren friends and classmates are and have been either Taiwanese or Malaysian-Chinese and I have never had a mainland Chinese friend(apart from my wife's family). The issue is bigger than Taiwan. Any where in southern China the local dialect and the accent of their Putonghua is very far from standard Mandarin. Sure you can learn standard Mandarin in the class but you won't hear it much on the street. In my university almost all the professors are Shanghainese and I rarely hear zhichishi and standard Mandarin. In fact from the beginning I have learned my Chinese in a very not standard environment but I still think that Beijing people are more understandable and if I knew this at the beginning I would have chosen beijing 4 years ago.

[Shi Tong]

Well, I still dont think you can lump Taiwan with "all other Southern places", since Taiwan has it's own standard. I feel like some of the other "souther places" DONT have a standard, or they use Beijing standard putonghua to teach, but none of them are thinking about how to pronounce it correctly. You're kind of saying that Hongkongese Mandarin is the same as Taiwanese prononced Mandarin, where they are massively different. It's not a second language or a badly taught language in Taiwan, it's a mother tongue.

They simply pronounce zhi chi shi a little differently from Northerners- especially Beijingers. If we had Hoffman here I'm sure he could describe the difference ;).

There is a clear devide between Zhi Chi Shi and ji qi xi in Taiwan, but it is most definately a different type of different from Beijing based Mandarin. The space between Beijingers pronunciation of Zhi Chi Shi and the Taiwanese pronunciation of Zhi Chi Shi is also a definate devide. Zhi Chi Shi DOES sound more like Ji Qi Xi in Taiwan, but that's not to say they're the same. That's like saying that American's pronunciation of English is incorrect.

Lu, have you not then ever heard about the Taiwanese jokes on Taiwan guoyu? Maybe "laugh at" is a little harsh, since people dont literally mock those without the correct pronunciation between zhi chi shi and ji qi xi, but it's certainly an in joke, and all of the youngsters talk about daiwan gouyu (I've used pinyin here to describe how they describe the joke, since the people in Taiwan who cannot pronounce these sounds properly are speakers not of Taiwan guoyu, but of daiwan gouyu) as a joke.

So those in Taiwan who DONT pronounce their zhi chi shi's and ji qi xi's correctly are usually of a different generation. You could even say that Taiwanese is dying out in Taipei because it's only the older generation who spoke Taiwanese as a mother tongue. In other regions there is also a difference- the further you get from Taipei the more people's mother tongue is Taiwanese, the more they pronounce zhi chi shi and ji qi xi closer together.

So if you want to learn Mandarin in Taiwan, I'd say learn Mandarin in Taipei. Probably though, the biggest factor you should think about is WHO you want to be talking to, and learn it regionally. I still cant handle differences in word useage and accent from Beijingers.

Oh, and though I've not spent a huge amount of time with Beijingers, I've heard plenty.

Do I have to record myself saying zhi chi shi and ji qi xi again too, by the way? ;)

[rezaf]

I have heard a lot of my Taiwanese friends saying that I speak Chinese better than them and when I say "How can it be possible?". They always say that their accent is not really standard. Of course it is an empty complement cuz my Chinese is bad and my accent is not that good either but you hear this kind of thing a lot from nanfangren.

[jbradfor]

It's quite possible that your accent is more 標準 than theirs.

[rezaf]

Anyway my point is that for learning standard Mandarin, the best place is where people on the street also speak something close to it like Beijing, Hebei,...

Communicating with people of different accents is very important in learning Chinese, but only after one has established himself in standard Mandarin.

[Lu]

There is a clear devide between Zhi Chi Shi and ji qi xi in Taiwan, but it is most definately a different type of different from Beijing based Mandarin. The space between Beijingers pronunciation of Zhi Chi Shi and the Taiwanese pronunciation of Zhi Chi Shi is also a definate devide. Zhi Chi Shi DOES sound more like Ji Qi Xi in Taiwan, but that's not to say they're the same. That's like saying that American's pronunciation of English is incorrect.

I see now that we're talking about two different things here. My argument, and the one I usually hear, was about how Taiwanese don't pronounce retroflexes as much as Notherners, hence zhi chi shi becomes zi ci si. (And rong can turn into long.)

You are talking about whether zhi chi shi sounds like ji qi xi. I don't think I've ever heard that happen. I have heard something else though: the typical Daiwan Goyi speaker says 'O qi youji' when he means 'Wo qu youju'. In my opinion, this ü -> i change is more obvious than a zhi -> ji change.

But as there are plenty of people with perfectly clear and reasonable standard Mandarin to talk to, this should not be a reason to not study Mandarin in Taiwan. Just don't learn all your vocab from the grocer and you'll be fine.