Taiwanese Waisheng ren

[calibre2001]

Hi all,

I just watched some old Ang Lee films (Pushing hands, Wedding banquet, Eat Man Drink Woman) and the Mandarin spoken by the main characters is, in my opinion, simply delightful (duh..their chinese ). Excellent pronounciation and intonation and all. What is striking is these characters are usually Waisheng ren in the movie.

With that in mind, I do watch plenty of Taiwanese TV shows including silly game shows. Their accents are totally different from that of the movies. Its more representative of how Taiwanese people speak in general (you know ,with the South Chinese style).

Indeed, a movie is just a movie. MY question is do modern day Taiwanese people who are of Waisheng ren origin speak with that polished Waisheng ren accent or do they sound like a typical modern day Taiwanese??

Oh yeah, by Waisheng ren I'm refering to those who fled to Taiwan from the mainland during the civil war era. THanks. Also, I've never been to Taiwan.

[Lu]

I don't know any real waishengren personally, but the son of two waisheng parents I met spoke even Taiwaneser than most Taiwanese I know.

I think waishengren don't necessarily speak more standard Mandarin than Taiwanese, as in the time they left China (1949) putonghua wasn't the standard language yet, or had only been the standard for a short time (correct me if I'm wrong here). Waishengren would most likely speak their own dialect, or Mandarin with a heavy accent.

[amperel]

my former taiwanese roommate is waishengren (although she is born in taiwan - but her parents are from mainland) and she speaks pretty standard putonghua (according to another chinese friend from mainland). so i guess it depends.

she never learn to speak taiwanese - only mandarin at home and school. she said she feel persecuted in taiwan for being a waishengren - not being able to speak taiwanese probably makes the situation worse. personally as a chinese from a multi-cultural society i feel sad for them. just goto show how myopic people can be.

[yonglan]

I think for people under 30 or 40 in 2004 there is little correlation between parents/grandparents' province of origin and one's Mandarin.

As for children/grandchildren of mainlanders being "persecuted", I have heard that charge, but when I ask the person how, all I've heard (I'm not saying all there is) is that people want them to speak Taiwanese. Well, it is the majority dialect and has been for some three centuries, even if it isn't the official dialect.

[wix]

I think there are probably two key factors in accent in Taiwan. They are (1) the level of education and (2) the geographical location. Generally speaking the more educated (particularly university level) someone is the more standard their accent will be. Also people in the north tend to speak with a more standard accent compared with the south. Taiwanese (Minnan) tends to be used a lot less both in Taipei and in the education system across Taiwan.

That said it is worth noting that what is considered a standard accent in Taiwan is not the same as what would be standard in China. It has its own Taiwanese characteristics. In Taiwan a standard accent would be someone who speaks with good pronunciation and correct tones. There would be less confusion between sh/s and zh/z for example.

she never learn to speak taiwanese - only mandarin at home and school. she said she feel persecuted in taiwan for being a waishengren - not being able to speak taiwanese probably makes the situation worse. personally as a chinese from a multi-cultural society i feel sad for them. just goto show how myopic people can be.

The ethnic divisions in Taiwan are often more imagined than real. They are usually whipped up by the media or politicians from both sides for political reasons. The main problem is that for many years the Taiwanese (Hoklo or Minnan) people were opressed and marginalised byt the KMT (mainlander) government. Now that the DPP has come to power the Taiwanese people are reasserting themselves and the mainlanders feel marginalised.

I think these divisions are quite ridiculous and the term waishengren is no longer relevant. Within ten years there will be virtually no mainland born politicians left. It seems ridiculous to call the sons and daughters of the waishengren by the same term but it happens. Why not just call them Taiwanese if they were born there?

[bhchao]

Why not just call them Taiwanese if they were born there?

Their parents descended from the mainland, so the sons and daughters of waishengren are also of mainland descent even though they were born in Taiwan. Perhaps Chinese is a more appropriate term.

[bhchao]

I think the reason why classifications like these exist in Taiwan is because identifying someone's nationality by ethnic origin is more of a norm in Asia than in the West.

For example, anyone can be an American or Canadian as long as they were born in the US or Canada. But calling a person of Dutch origin born in Japan Japanese makes no sense to the Japanese. Same thing applies to Taiwan with regards to the waishengren. I think the thinking is "Your parents descended from the mainland, so your motherland is the mainland, and therefore you are not Taiwanese."

[wix]

Their parents descended from the mainland, so the sons and daughters of waishengren are also of mainland descent even though they were born in Taiwan. Perhaps Chinese is a more appropriate term.

But the Hoklo people are also of mainland descent. It just happens that their ancestors arrived in Taiwan a few hundred years earlier.

The question is at what point does someone cease to be a mainlander and become Taiwanese. My ancestors came to Australia from England and Scotland, but I never consider myself to be English or Scottish. I was born in Australia so I think of myself as Australian.

[yonglan]

bhchao and wix, I suspect you both know the answer to your questions of why they won't call themselves Chinese or Taiwanese. Aside from the political rally speak of "New Taiwanese" many people are attached to being either Chinese or Taiwanese. Many others aren't so attached. It seems that few children of mainlanders will call themselves Taiwanese, though some children of earlier Taiwanese will call themselves Chinese, so the wai/ben sheng ren debate may not die as quickly or as fully as many hope.

The polling numbers over the years have shown an increasing percentage of people saying they're Taiwanese, decreasing for Chinese, and I *think* (I forget, ok) a decreasing number for those who say both Chinese and Taiwanese.

What one calls oneself in Taiwan can (can) say a lot about what one wants the future of Taiwan to be. That then makes it more important than just words.

Sure they're ancestors both came from China, as did the Hakka's ancestors (they're about as numerous as mainlanders), but that sort of thing is still confusing in other places in the world.

Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and America are different cases (in reality, not saying they should be) because they are the four immigrant nations or 'new' countries. Sure other places are taking immigrants now, but that's basically post WWII, far less as a percentage of their population (though they don't think so), and in some countries not really meant to be immigration.

[bhchao]

A waishengren calling himself or herself Chinese or Taiwanese certainly carries political weight, based on who they identify with. How much the identification of the waishengren will differ with those of their future descendants in Taiwan remains to be seen.

It seems that few children of mainlanders will call themselves Taiwanese

I agree with this, for now.

My grandparents (both sides) were waishengren who came from Guangdong and Jiangsu, and my parents certainly don't call themselves Taiwanese.

[calibre2001]

So I presume these waisheng ren call themselves 'Chinese' as in they are of han chinese ethnicity or migrants from the mainland? Somehow I get the feeling you're refering to the second.

[Ian_Lee]

Frankly speaking I never understand why people/politicians in Taiwan like to exploit the "Provincial origin" (weirdly they call it "ethnic") issue.

And unlike another poster said, such emphasis/delineation of "pronvincial origin" is only prevalent in Taiwan and not in any other overseas Chinese community.

In Hong Kong, as long as you live there for 7 years and acquire a permanent HKID, then you are a HKer and not a Mainlander.

Per Taiwanese criterion, almost all HK politicans, pro-Beijing or anti-Beijing alike, Tung Chee Hwa, Anson Chan, Martin Lee,.....etc are all "Mainlanders" since they were not born in Hong Kong.

But even during vociferous pre-election political campaigning, nobody ever labelled Tung as "Mainlander" and "non-HKer".

Moreover, there is such strange idea in Taiwan that any politican not born in Taiwan must be pro-CCP.

In a mature democracy, politics should evolve around issue and not a person's birth place.

But in Taiwan, the birth place has become the "original sin".

[Ian_Lee]

The polling numbers over the years have shown an increasing percentage of people saying they're Taiwanese, decreasing for Chinese, and I *think* (I forget, ok) a decreasing number for those who say both Chinese and Taiwanese.

Actually such poll has taken regularly in Hong Kong too.

Normally about 1/3 call themselves in either category (HKer, Chinese or HKer/Chinese). Of course, the response fluctuates too. For instance, after the China Olympic Team visited HK, there was a surge in those who identified themselves as HKer/Chinese.

But I think one should not look much in such poll.

[bhchao]

Per Taiwanese criterion, almost all HK politicans, pro-Beijing or anti-Beijing alike, Tung Chee Hwa, Anson Chan, Martin Lee,.....etc are all "Mainlanders" since they were not born in Hong Kong.

But even during vociferous pre-election political campaigning, nobody ever labelled Tung as "Mainlander" and "non-HKer".

Well there is no level of self-determination (in terms of sovereignty) in Hong Kong to the extent that exists in Taiwan. There is no question regarding Hong Kong being an integral part of China.

In Taiwan, people who associate themselves with the self-determination movement almost always identify themselves with the DPP, and to vote for a "Mainlander" or KMT doesn't run parallel to their causes.

If the question of Taiwan's political future is settled and everyone on both sides of the Strait is in agreement, then we would not have this labelling of politicians being "Mainlander" or "non-Taiwanese".

[Ian_Lee]

Actually I don't understand what the fuss is about Taiwan's self-determination movement.

Aren't the BenShengRen in charge for the past 12 years? So why the need for self-determination when the Benshengren already dictate their own fate?

And what is the benefit of changing the national title from "ROC" to "ROT"? Will the title change automatically let Taiwan become a member of UN? Will the title change let Taiwan gain another 100 countries' diplomatic recognition?

Get real.

[bhchao]

Aren't the BenShengRen in charge for the past 12 years? So why the need for self-determination when the Benshengren already dictate their own fate?

Ian, I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Benshengren politicians or Benshengren voters? If you are referring to Benshengren voters, the results of the razor-thin election earlier this year don't seem to bear that out. If I remember correctly, a lot of Benshengren voters voted for Lien Chan. Support among the Benshengren voters for the KMT candidate was strongest in the Taipei area, and northern and central Taiwan (the vote split about 50%).

本省人 voters in southern Taiwan and the Kaoshiung vicinity unanimously voted DPP.

Of course, KMT may become extinct and might not recover from the results of this year's election. Their only hope might be Ma Ying-jeou, who kicked A-Bian out of the Taipei mayoral office, and who I heard is a big hit among women in East Asia.

[frozenmyth]

Calibre 2001.

Interesting and thought provoking topic.

Just saw this although you first posted this a couple of months ago.

First addressing more directly to your interesting topic.

The Chinese people all have their own dialects from each of China's provinces. One amazing factors of the Chinese language is that the written part stayed the same for more than 2000 years, but even for many Chinese historians (the real ones in China) it would be difficult to determine what Chinese words were used in writing more than 3000 years ago.

The speaking part, nowadays is so called Bejingnese (mandarin), the offical and national language. That dialect had not always been, far shorter than the Chinese writing, the commonly used dialect by the Chinese. Although the Chinese may speak different dialects depending on the provinces, they could all (educated population) communicate through writings without difficulty.

If you are talking about how good, classical, standard, properly sounding, vintage, or else, speaking mandarin then yes, there are differences among the Chinese. The Taiwanese Waisheng ren do speak bettern mandarin than the so called Taiwanese Taiwanese simply because those

Waisheng ren have used mandarin more. Keep in mind though, the Chinese seem to have a penchant to divide themselves distinctively since thounsands of years ago. There is no Waisheng ren in mainland China, the term is specifically used in Taiwan. In the mainland, many Chinese may refer to different groups according to what province a person comes from.

Among the Chinese, the 2 particular groups which have been thought of as being using improper or really crappy sound mandarin are Taiwanese & the Cantonese in Hong Kong (although nowadays HK more and more HK people are either forced by the changing trends in society or have chosen to learn better mandarin). Who judge that? By some mainlanders. The funny thing is that many mainlanders from the more rural provinces speak mandarin with heavy accents which would be difficult to understand to many native Chinese.

Nowadays, it's much more difficult to find more distinct or less Taiwanese influenced mandarin speakers in Taiwan. Even the Waisheng ren(s), if they go to the mainland people could pick them out quite easily. Not all of them but many. In Taiwan, the Waisheng indeed speak better mandarin than Taiwanese Taiwanese. The only reason most non-Chinese only know about mandarin is because that's the official language for Chinese. Cantonese, because earlier days many internationl businesses were conducted in that part of China and a bit later Hong Kong as a British concession. By no mean are mandarin and Cantonese the only 2 Chinese dialects! The Taiwanese Taiwanese may more likely tell you that they can communicate with Minnon ren just by speaking. Both of them will say their dialects are still not completely the same though.

Most people in Taiwan / from Taiwan may use the Taiwanese abraod.

The Waishen ren may be more inclined to label themselves as Chinese, Taiwanese Chinese, I am from Taiwan and / but I am Chinese, or something similar. Then, many non-Chinese for different reasons may go, hum, I thought Taiwan--Taiwanese. The Waishen ren may go, nope, Chinese, and many may go yeah, different politics but all Chinese.

Many Taiwanese Taiwanese will offer explainations including the more political issue such as 1992 proclamation done in Singapore, one China common understanding (acknowledgement), as not common understanding but rather now intepreted as "China? One Country?? Separate intepretations."

The Taiwan and China issue is not simple, and really depends on who you talk to. A more object way to think, different from DETERMINATION, of that may be to learn what both Taiwan and China say and see what you think. The Taiwanese Taiwanese indeed try hard to eradicate their Chinese roots nowadays in many many ridiculous ways as really laughable. Politically almost impossible. Can't totall blame the Taiwanese for doing so because of some stupid and unfair things the "Waishen ren" did after they fled to Taiwan in 1949 due to Chinese civil war. By no mean was the 1949 group the first ever Chinese migration though. Correctly and if one really wants to be object, all those Chinese are Waishen ren who deprived the indigenous people of their island--Taiwan.

Those indigenous people are not of Chinese blood, but rather more closely related to some tribes in New Zealand. Another funny thing is that the current Vice President of Taiwan recently offended the indigenous people by saying that the indigenous people are not Taiwan, and the Taiwanese Taiwanese are true representations of Taiwan. Gee, what a woman!

Yeah, Taiwan a "democratic country" wants to be.

The properly sound mandarin Chinese from the island of Taiwan is very rare nowadays and may actually be found oversea rather than in Taiwan.

To some, they may sound more of properly Chinese than both Taiwanese and Bejinging Chinese! Bejinging Chinese roll the tongue a lot and seems like a sharp tongue in both their usage of the langue and its speaking sound.

[Quest]

There is no Waisheng ren in mainland China, the term is specifically used in Taiwan.

Migrant workers are called 外省佬 in Guangzhou.

[lpascoe]

Another funny thing is that the current Vice President of Taiwan recently offended the indigenous people by saying that the indigenous people are not Taiwan, and the Taiwanese Taiwanese are true representations of Taiwan. Gee, what a woman!

Worse, didn't she say the indigenous people should move to some place in Central America because it would be better than living in Taiwan's landslide-prone mountain areas, or something?! The mind boggles.

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I know this is about something someone said months ago, but...

While I can't comment on someone feeling victimized by being unable to speak Taiwanese in Taiwan, I have to say that if you lived in southern Taiwan, I suspect you would feel pretty isolated if you couldn't.

I learnt Taiwanese for 2 years. Why? I live in Kaohsiung. Almost all of my friends are Taiwanese. Mostly, they speak Mandarin, but they always slip in a couple of sentences here and there in Taiwanese. They don't even do it on purpose, it just happens. Sometimes in a group there will be some speaking Mandarin and others speaking Taiwanese all involved in the same conversation. I started to think that my Mandarin really sucked because there were times I didn't understand anything, only to find out my friends were speaking Taiwanese. It's natural for my friends to switch between the two languages, without even pausing for breath. Drove me nuts! It made me realize, no matter how good my Mandarin got, there would always be times when I wouldn't understand what was going on around me. I'm a foreigner in Taiwan, so I am used to feeling like a bit of an oddity, but if I had been born here and felt that way, I'm sure it would make me miserable.

I don't learn Taiwanese anymore and while I still hear it everyday, I rarely speak it, relying on my Mandarin, which is much better than my Taiwanese. But I have to say, Taiwanese comes in really useful in the markets and never fails to make taxi drivers and old A-mas smile.

[calibre2001]

*bump*