张三丰 and translation

[Kenny同志]

How would you say this in English?

谢逊斜目凝视，说道：“素闻尊师张三丰先生武功冠绝当世，可惜缘悭一面。你是他及门高弟，见识却如此凡庸，想来张三丰也不过如此，这一面不见也罢。”

thanks!

[anonymoose]

That's some pretty hardcore stuff you have there, kenny. Here's my attempt:

Xie Xun stared askance, and said, "Master Zhang San Feng was always reputed to be the finest warrior alive. Unfortunately I was never destined to meet him. You are his disciple, and yet your insight is so average. Maybe Zhang San Feng wasn't much after all. Never mind my not meeting him."

[Kenny同志]

多谢Anonymoose兄指教。

Overall, I think it’s good. 武功冠绝当世 is not translated well, but no matter, after all, translation is translation. Again, the original sentence is very 文雅, and the 文雅ness, I think is lost in the translation process. But we translators have to make compromises all the time; we, from time to time, have to sacrifice the style for the sake of the meaning of the text.

Btw, our community seems to have lost quite a lot of bounce.

[anonymoose]

Well maybe you could explain what 武功冠绝当世 means, and then I'll give a better translation if I can.

[Kenny同志]

武功冠绝当世，意思是张三丰的武功在那个年代无人能及。

His wugong had no match in the world.

Btw, the pinyin of 谢逊 is Xie4Xun4.

[anonymoose]

I think saying Zhang San Feng was the finest warrior alive pretty much conveys this meaning. But of course there are many ways to skin a cat. You could also say, "Master Zhang San Feng's martial skill was unrivalled in the world", or using your words, "Master Zhang San Feng's wugong had no match in the world".

[Kenny同志]

hehe, yes, it basically conveys the meaning, but Zhang was not a warrior, he was a 修道之人 or Taoist.

[anonymoose]

OK, I see. :o

[creamyhorror]

A more 文雅 rendering, maybe:

Xie Xun stared at him askance, and spoke: "I had heard Master Zhang's skills were supreme in all the land, and so regretted that Fate had not seen fit to cross our paths. But if he is to be adjudged by the unremarkable attainments of his senior disciple, then perhaps it is no great loss of mine."

[anonymoose]

creamyhorror, that's pretty good. You should write a novel.

[Kenny同志]

Creamyhorror, that’s really excellent! 多谢赐教。

PS: the line is picked out from Louis Cha’s novel 倚天屠龙记 The Heaven Sword and Dragon Sabre . Given the context of the line, I am of the opinion that 见识 here is closer to “insight” or “sense”.

You can watch the very episode of the TV series here. (the line is slightly modified.)

[Kenny同志]

Xie Xun stared askance, and said, "Master Zhang San Feng was always reputed to be the finest warrior alive. Unfortunately I was never destined to meet him. You are his disciple, and yet your insight is so average. Maybe Zhang San Feng wasn't much after all. Never mind my not meeting him."

Xie Xun stared at him askance, and spoke: "I had heard Master Zhang's skills were supreme in all the land, and so regretted that Fate had not seen fit to cross our paths. But if he is to be adjudged by the unremarkable attainments of his senior disciple, then perhaps it is no great loss of mine."

I am a little puzzled here that Anonymoose used “was always reputed” and Creamyhorror “had heard”. In Chinese, “素闻”的意思是一直以来听说. So if I were to translate it, I would very likely use “has been reputed” or “have heard” or “has been said”. What do you think?

Sorry for being so fussy about it.

[creamyhorror]

Thanks, kenny & anonymoose. No problem with using “insight” for 见识, although "sense" doesn't quite fit I think.

I am a little puzzled here that Anonymoose used “was always reputed” and Creamyhorror “had heard”. In Chinese, “素闻”的意思是一直以来听说. So if I were to translate it, I would very likely use “has been reputed” or “have heard” or “has been said”. What do you think?

You can use present perfect tense (has/have) if you like. Past perfect (had) isn't necessary.

If you want to emphasize the 一直以来听说 meaning of 素闻, you might consider using "always" in the sentence, as in "I have always heard Master Zhang's skills were supreme in all the land" or "Master Zhang's skills have always been reputed to be unrivalled in all the land". (unrivalled = British spelling)

[anonymoose]

I am a little puzzled here that Anonymoose used “was always reputed” and Creamyhorror “had heard”. In Chinese, “素闻”的意思是一直以来听说. So if I were to translate it, I would very likely use “has been reputed” or “have heard” or “has been said”. What do you think?

If you write "has been reputed to be the finest warrior alive", in my mind, it implies Master Zhang is still alive.

[Kenny同志]

You can use present perfect tense (has/have) if you like. Past perfect (had) isn't necessary.

If you want to emphasize the 一直以来听说 meaning of 素闻, you might consider using "always" in the sentence, as in "I have always heard Master Zhang's skills were supreme in all the land" or "Master Zhang's skills have always been reputed to be unrivalled in all the land". (unrivalled = British spelling)

Thanks for confirming this.

If you write "has been reputed to be the finest warrior alive", in my mind, it implies Master Zhang is still alive.

Zhang was alive when Xie Xun said that. 倚天屠龙记（香港无线 2001年版） is a great set of TV series and I strongly recommend it.

多谢二位指教

[anonymoose]

Zhang was alive when Xie Xun said that.

OK. I got the wrong end of the stick. That makes quite a difference. In that case, perhaps a better translation would be:

Xie Xun stared at him askance, and said, "I've always heard that Master Zhang San Feng is the most skilled fighter in the land. Alas, I've never had the fortune to meet him. (But) you are his disciple, and yet your insight is so unremarkable, (so) maybe there isn't much to Zhang San Feng after all, (and) not meeting him is no loss of mine."

[Kenny同志]

多谢Anonymoose兄，学习了。

[Kenny同志]

多谢Anonymoose兄，学习了。

[imron]

None of the above translations really do it for me. Although parts of them are good (and getting better as the thread progresses), it still seems very much like a direct translation of the Chinese rather than the way it would have been written if the original was in English. My attempt is below, and probably isn't any better, but perhaps it can at least add to the discussion.

A couple of minor points, that may or may not be correct (please feel free to comment Kenny). To me 尊师张三丰先生 is more "your master, Zhang Sanfeng", rather than "Master Zhang Sanfeng". Also, I don't think 'insight' is a good translation for 见识 in this context. If you read the section before this to see why Xie Xun is saying this, it's because he's berating 张翠山 for having such a naive and simplistic view of the world in which good guys are rewarded for their deeds, and bad guys get their comeuppence, etc.

So, borrowing largely from the translations above:

Xie Xun stared at him askance. "I'd always heard your master, Zhang Sanfeng, was the greatest fighter in the land, and was dissapointed that we'd not yet had the fortune to meet. Perhaps that's just as well, however, because if his senior disciple is this simplistic and naïve, I can't help but think he would be much the same".

or depending on the phrasing of the previous sentences, perhaps even:

"I'd always heard your master, Zhang Sanfeng, was the greatest fighter in the land, and was dissapointed that we'd not yet had the fortune to meet," said Xie Xun, staring at him askance. "Perhaps that's just as well, however, because if his senior disciple is this simplistic and naïve, I can't help but think he would be much the same".

[Kenny同志]

Imron, long time no see. I agree with you on your “minor” points, but as for “武功冠绝天下”, I have my reservations. If we translate it as “the greatest fighter/warrior in the land”, it would be against the thoughts and tradition of Taoism. You can take a look at this http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/49578059.html?fr=ala2

I have to admit that your translation clings to the original to a closer extent, but as I have said, translation is, after all, translation. Reading the original is a quite different experience to me than reading its translation.