Will it be too late..?

[kopernikus]

I have a question about how much harder it gets to study languages as you get older. When, if ever, will you reach the "a bit too late"-point?

I am now 17, and have been living in China for a year. I didn't come here to study Mandarin or anything, but we had to take it in school and now I'm hooked... I'm returning home this summer, but I'm still gonna continue studying the language there in some way.

So what I wonder is, when I get out of high school, should I go directly to China in order to get the best grasp of the language, or can I just go with the flow..?

[roddy]

I don't think you're old enough to have to worry yet (unless you got the digits in your age the wrong way round). Once you're past the 'critical stage' for language learning, it's all much the same. Just do whatever is most important for you at the moment. If you don't use the language while you are away you will find you forget stuff, but it'll come back quickly when you return.

Roddy

[wix]

I started studying Chinese at 25 and have managed to become quite proficient in the language. Apart from picking up the basics of a few languages while travelling and two years of high school French (that I didn't take seriously) it was the first foreign language I learnt. I don't think it is ever too late to learn the language. Although in my experience as an English teacher I have found that some times students over the age of 50 are slower to learn or have some learning difficulties.

If you've been in China for a year you should already have the basics and be familiar with the sounds of the language. That will give you a good base to work from if you continue your studies elsewhere. Of course if you are really serious about learning Mandarin then obviously China (or Taiwan) is the best place to learn it well.

[kopernikus]

ok, thanks for the answers... i guess i'll just take it easy then

[channamasala]

I just started Chinese last year and I was 21...and I'm doing very well. I mean, I'm not fluent yet but for ten months I'm impressed with me. So don't worry, 17 is certainly not too late.

[sfr@rcn.com]

Ummm. I've been studying putonghua (written and spoken) for three or four years now and I'm well over 50. I mean WELL over 50. My teacher says that I'll never sound like a native, but then I have Chinese friends who came here in their preteens who still have thick Chinese accents. However, my teacher says that my accent is good enough for people to understand me completely and my experience in China and with Chinese-Americans certainly bears this out. Judging just from my own experience, my accent in Spanish and French, which I barely know, is fairly good--not too heavily Americanized. But we're not talking about a western language here. And that's the point. Also, one of my teacher's two sons came here when he was 12 and his accent is pretty bad. The other came when he was 8 and he speaks almost unaccented English.

[channamasala]

Let's put it this way - they say that the ability to learn a language natively shuts off at about 10 years old or so. What you are left with is the ability to learn another language as a secondary language, but not a mother tongue. That does NOT mean you can't speak it well, nor does it mean you can't be fluent. The disadvantage is that your absorption rate is lower, but the advantage is that when grammar or vocab is explained to you, you can understand and utilize the concept more quicky...it's not necessary to constantly review.

[zh-laoshi]

Actually, you can never be too old to learn. There is not "too late" point. My mother was 60 years old when she started learning Russian, and did very well with it. I'm sure you can do it with Chinese.

[ever00t]

have a question about how much harder it gets to study languages as you get older. When, if ever, will you reach the "a bit too late"-point?

The age is never going to be a problem in this point. Karl Marx,the man when he was already in his fifties he just began to lern Rurssians ,six months later he had learned enough to read articles and reports in Russian.

The youngers to learn foreign languages would only be improving their Pronunciations specifically,as to understand the structures and stuff of the languages they are not really superior to the rest of them,the 70s',60s',etc.

Compare us to Karl Marx is not fair anyway,for both sides ,LOL.

Since you have been to China and stayed there for 1 year this did help you a lot to understand Chinese more than it'd be in your motherland ?I think so.

Go to China,and if the language problems still remain completely,it's just a matter of time,be patient.

[back]

送你一句中国的古话：活到老学到老。

[ala]

I started seriously learning English pretty late, late teens, but my English I think is okay. Barely any accent, certainly nothing distinctive. To avoid accents, it's good to know some rudimentary phonetics, and listen to recordings (of all kinds) a lot. When I was learning English, on the spot conversation (like in classes) tended to ruin my pronunciation more since I was always in a hurry to generate sentences and dig deep for vocabulary. So recordings to me was a much calmer option. I was definitely able to absorb more, including different varieties of speech. I really don't buy the 10 years old maximum age thing. I just think a child has more time to learn and are given more understanding when making mistakes.

Chinese strikes me as an easier language to speak than English or Japanese, as it is less inflected. Maybe I'm biased. But Japanese was a much larger pain than English to converse with initially. In English I was able to use sentence patterns more readily (albeit with frequent grammatical errors), in Japanese though I would always blank out before opening my mouth. Sentence structure may have something to do with it. But English became a pain when I got more advanced. So I'm thinking based on experience with English, Chinese must be easy to immediate beginners? But progressively harder and more convoluted later on?

[Altair]

Ala,

I would agree with your statement. I have a lot of experience as a language learner, but not quite as much experience as a successful language learner . I think that basic English and basic Mandarin are deceptively easy. The real fun begins later on.

How many English grammar books explain that the grammar of "town house" and "town hall" are not the same? I would wager that one out of ten thousand native speakers could not explain the difference, even though they differentiate these two structures instinctively and use the underlying grammar every minute of their speaking lives. How many Chinese grammar books adequately explain exactly what the 了 "le" in a construction like 水来了 "shui3 lai2 le" means? Similarly, I think I had to read through about seven grammar books before I understood this point. I still do not understand why one cannot use 了 "le" in a construction like 我们昨天才到了.

These are the sorts of things that are really hard to acquire at a native level if one does not begin before the age of ten. I think there is definite truth to the hardwiring of the brain around this age; however, one can still acquire almost totally fluency and accentless speach at even an advanced age. The problem is that after a certain age, one will fail to bother with tiny points of grammar and phonetics that really make little difference, even to native speakers.

[Ken]

I saw a TV program dedicated to brain health last week. One of the comments was that there is a substantial body of evidence (based on research) that memory function peaks between 20 and 30 years of age.

I refuse to accept this decline. I will continue to expand my mind by using it to learn and apply what I learn. Hope you do, too.

[gao_bo_han]

Speak a foreign language without an accent after starting past 10? Good luck. I know lots of Vietnamese who came to America when they were between 10-14, went to high school and college here, and speak English fluently but with very obvious accents. I don't really see what all the fuss about accents is...I personally have no problems with accents...not remotely. Perhaps because I know that I have an American accent when I speak Mandarin...

[Guest]

Wow, what a great topic. I was a linguistics major in college for while, before I switched to Japanese. Even linguists are still fighting over whethere a "critical period" exists. 30 years ago, they all said it did. Now it's getting less and less clear. Maybe kids do better because they get more total exposure in the target language. Maybe it's because their 2nd language skills can surpass their mother tongue, thus making the 2nd language their default. Maybe they're just less afraid of mistakes than adults.

But here's some good news. While I was in middle school in the US, a new neighbor moved in. She was a 50 year old Russian lady. She knew almost no English, so my grandmother befriended her and tried to help her out. Anyway, by the time I left for college, my neighbor's English was flawless. She had no accent, and could talk to her about everything I was learning in school with no problem. Here's why I think she made it: She studied really hard at first. She made lots of American friends, like my grandmother. In fact she very rarely used Russian. She was a book worm. And last, but not least, she kept studying, reading, listening to the radio, looking at kids books, etc... long after her English was fluent. I think most adults will work hard until their skills are "good enough". They won't read history books, or watch TV shows for teaching kids math or anything like my neighbor did.

I like thinking of her whenever learning Chinese seems hopeless

[zh-laoshi]

Let's put it this way - they say that the ability to learn a language natively shuts off at about 10 years old or so.

Well, I would like to disagree with that. It depends on the environment in which you're learning/speaking the language. When I lived in west Ukraine and taught English there, I started off knowing only Russian. But after two years, I was speaking Ukrainian with a west Ukrainan accent - some thought I was born and raised there.

Of course, with some languages, it's very difficult to have a native accent. But the thing to keep in mind is, if you can get your point across and have it understood, then you've succeded in what you're learning. I don't expect my students to have a perfectly 100% native accent (which is pushed quite A LOT in the linguistics circle). I like to put the main focus on communication - getting your point across. Speak it the best you can so you won't be misunderstood and you'll do fine.