Undergraduate in China?

[Obi-wan]

Hi all, I was considering doing my undergraduate degree in China and just wanted to ask you guys a few things.

First, a little background. I'm an ABC, Fluent in mandarin (HSK 6 was a cakewalk), excellent HS GPA, excellent extracurriculars, etc. I could go to my state college for free, or pay my way through a better top 50 school in the US but honestly I think I want to study in China. Simply put, I love my culture, and love China. Visit every summer whenever I have the chance.

I think I would have a pretty solid chance of getting into Beida/Tsinghua since they're so lenient towards foreigners (or has this changed?).

Anyways, a few questions

1) Can you transfer out of Chinese undergraduate programs? I know a few people who transfered to the US after a year or two in a Chinese university. Can I assume that to be true for all c9-985 colleges? I'm mostly worried losing exit opportunities. If I have a change of heart, will I still be able to transfer back to the US?

2) I'm a pretty intelligent guy but hell, I'm not a genius. Will college in China bend me over and bone me? I looked at the college of economics undergraduate course listing and it had like linear algebra and advanced mathematics. I did alright in Calc BC but have no idea how I pulled a 5 out of my ass on the ap test. I grew up with my parents telling me about the grueling conditions Chinese students endured. As long as it's not ridiculous, I'm willing to burn the midnight oil and study like hell.

3) After graduating will I still be treated as an expat? I mean...expat pay is nice

Thanks all!

[easternwest]

I am currently in a senior in college in the U.S. and I am going through the job cycle,

Let me put this clearly, DO NOT DO AN UNDERGRAD IN CHINA FOR ALL FOUR YEARS. If you love China, go to an US school and study aboard

You will not get global pay if you do all 4 years at a Chinese school. I have the most familiarity with the financial industry and there is huge difference between local pay and global pay. Let me give you an example, I had a friend who took a summer analyst position with an American owned fund in Bejing. He goes to a top 20 US school. Even though the Chinese interns were doing the same stuff as him, they were paid 1/3 as much as him. The Chinese interns were not dumb kids either; they were top of their class at Guanghua.

The opportunities available to you will be much greater here. You will have access to alum contacts, which is crucial in finding a job.

THINK this through

[cui ruide]

1) I don't think all American universities will hold Chinese universities in as high regard. You might be able to transfer, but the likelihood of getting credit for what coursework you've already completed might be more difficult.

2) I can't speak for Beida/Tsinghua, but my observation is lots of Chinese students sleep in class and place a higher priority on video games. That might be a gross generalization, but again, the impression I get is that Chinese education largely lecture-based, and doesn't require much response from you, nor will it give you much attention. I also get the impression the name of your school is more important for jobs than your performance while at that institution. You should also consider that in the Chinese university system it's very difficult to change your major. Linguistically, it might pose some challenge in regards to texts you must read and papers you must write. Since you're technically American, I'm not sure if you'll be in a program for foreigners or thrown right in with the rest of the local students. You should consider that local students live 4-6 to a room and sometimes don't have heat/air conditioning depending what school it is. Some dorms also seem to have a mandatory lights-out. I guess you could always get an apartment off campus, though.

3) Well, you'll have all the difficulty of an expat: enormous visa troubles. Some expat pay is great (usually the expats who are transferred over here with no China background and are given a hardship bonus). Some expat pay is okay (about English teacher-level salary equivalent) for young consultants, pr, communications, language-related expats. But...there are 6 million new graduates from Chinese universities every year, and in my experience a local Chinese worker with ANY North American/European higher education is thought of as more valuable. This sounds rough, but... While you might have an American passport and fluent, high-school level English--what will you really offer different from the upper crust of that 6 million that's worth paying an expat salary for? Not to mention you need two years post-graduation experience to get a real working visa. Additionally, there's a deal of discrimination against Asian expats in hiring for some professions.

I think you'd be better off going to school in America and taking a semester to study abroad--or better yet, do an internship--in China instead if you really want to the experience. That way you'll have better career options both in American and China later on. I might be biased, but I think it's fairly true, you'll also just get a much better and probably more rewarding education in the U.S. ;)

[anonymoose]

2) I'm a pretty intelligent guy but hell, I'm not a genius. Will college in China bend me over and bone me?

I don't think "college in China" will necessarily "bend you over and bone you", but going to Beida or Qinghua might well do. Don't forget these are the top two universities in a country where competition for university places is very fierce. Therefore, you will be up against the best of the best.

[gato]

The safer path is to go to university and get your degree in the US, improve your Chinese in the meanwhile, and see if you can get a job in China after you graduate.

[Obi-wan]

Fair enough, thanks for the responses everyone. Going to school stateside sounds like the better bet then. Maybe I'll study abroad or something for a semester or two instead

Is the job market in China biased towards foreigners/people with a foreign degree? Are distinctions as big between colleges? Sure a Cornell grad is > a Rutgers grad, but will the Rutgers grad get a chance to interview or will he just be filtered out in initial resume drops?

Large US state school > Beida, Qinghua, Jiaoda, Fudan, Zheda etc?

[Obi-wan]

Blah can't edit last post. Of course, I don't live in California, Virginia, North Carolina, Texas where the public schools are actually tier one schools

[Obi-wan]

Ok, so lemme rephrase this question a little bit:

Transferring from Beida/Qinghua/other c9 school to Cornell/Columbia/Duke/2nd tier Ivey top 10 b-school, uphill battle? simply improbable? Or does my China experience make me interesting or ding me in the eyes of admissions staff?

I know it's 'easy' to transfer to the larger schools from China ie public states. My cousin transferred from a low yi ben school (almost at the bottom) to SUNY bing, know someone who transferred to NYU too from Fudan too.

I'd like to go to a top 20 target school for recruiting, but I simply don't have the $$ for it lol. My grandparents are willing to sponsor me in China if I go to school, I'm smart enough and I have the credentials to get into a top 20 school right out of HS but not the $$. At age 20 I have a insurance payment of 75k USD due to me, but until then...

I know the simplest, safest way is to go to my state, get a nice GPA, rack up some EC's and transfer but where's the excitement in that? o.o I've visited my local state and it's not terrible but it makes me cringe. Hard. Would I be screwing myself banking on transferring to a top 20 US college from a c9 school?

Looking back, this question looks like it belongs more on college-confidential than Chinese-forums, sorry mods @__@ Please delete my other posts waiting approval for this thread, I think this one covers it more adequately.

[JonBI]

Well, since you talk like such an expert, it is a wonder that you do not just go ahead and do that. You came for advice, and people gave it to you, decide to follow it or not. From experience, university degrees from China are not highly regarded by foreign institutions anyway. If you want to go to a good university abroad, Hong Kong University would be a good choice, and will let you connect to "your culture," whatever the hell that means, but to be honest, maybe, if your grades are so good, you should follow the Chinese example anyway and just go to a university in the States - seeing as how that is what most of the educated elite this side of the pacific are doing anyway.

[doraemon]

Obiwan, I don't think doing an undergraduate degree in China is a good idea. I, like you, am also a Chinese who grew up overseas (but was still born in China)and also considered doing undergraduate study at one of China's top universities (Beida, Qinghua, Fudan, Beishida, Beiwai and Zheda). I also have a pretty good commandof the language (HSK 11 completed) so that prompted me to consider this path for a while. However, it was met with both opposition and acknowledgement by the people around me and after months of weighing up the pros and cons, I'm still deciding to attend university in Australia.

For: Statistics have shown that only about 1 in 10000 students who sit the 高考 exam in China every year get into Beijing University, so if I happen to go there (which wouldn't be that difficult since they are lenient on overseas students), I would be interacting with the best of the best in China.I would also be able to make friends with people of high social status (e.g. children of important government officials)who are invaluable to have around you especially in a country like China.

Against:Regardless of Beida/Qinghua's position in the eyes of Chinese nationals, they still have a long way to go to be up there in the same league with that of the West. The education system in China renders an undergraduate degree virtually useless in a Western nation. (Maybe the US is a bit more open now, but Australia would not recognise an undergraduate certificate from Beijing Univeristy). Also, completing your Bachelor's degree in China would pretty much confine you to working in that one country; it would be very difficult for you to undertake an international style job.

So although the advantages of doing undergraduate study at China's most prestigious university seems very enticing, it's not that good an idea in the long run. Having an undergraduate degree from a Western country under your belt is much more flexible, useful and well recognised.

[gato]

College serves two main functions. First is personal development through the educational and life experience. The second is earning a degree for successfully getting through the weeding system. The second reason is why even though Rutger and Cornell might provide roughly equivalent in educational quality, a Cornell degree is considered more valuable.

If you go to college in China, you will probably get valuable life experience though the education experience will be lacking. But you won't get any sort of badge at all for having survived a weeding out process because it'll be easier for you to get admitted to Beida as a foreigner than to get admitted to Rutgers as a New Jersey resident.

[cui ruide]

It won't be fun, but 75k could probably come close to paying the tuition for a lot of the "Public Ivies." Many public universities also have an honors program.

There are two kinds of places you can get jobs in China: Chinese companies and foreign companies.

1. Foreign companies won't find much value in your Beida/Tsinghua/Fudan diploma when they're considering foreign hires. It'll be great for Chinese hires. Why would they pay an expat salary for what they can get for a domestic (a third of the price) salary?

2. Chinese companies, in order to hire you and get your a work visa need to prove to the government you do something that a Chinese worker can't--not just China, but most countries have a "bias" against immigrant workers (does that phrasing put it in perspective?). This generally means Chinese companies hire foreigners for language-oriented jobs. In general, Chinese people don't know ANYTHING about U.S. universities other than Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Stanford. Fortunately, that often works in your favor. The University of (State) - Boonies Campus Extension will probably be worth more as a foreigner hire than a Chinese diploma. Again--why would they pay an expat salary for what they can get for a domestic (a third of the price) salary?

China is still a land of opportunity for young people (though there are lots of obstacles in getting a visa, i.e. having to have 2 years post-graduation work experience. When looking for a job, the diploma you have doesn't matter as much as: alumni networks and your own salesmanship.

I think you're selling available U.S. education short, while aggrandizing Chinese education. You're generalizing your previous experience in China, and probably not prepared for life as an actual student and resident. You're thinking marketing yourself with Chinese diploma will be a success, but you don't think to use that marketing for an American diploma you can get. You seem to be assuming you will only be looking for jobs in China an nowhere else. If there is just one thing I can tell you for a fact, it's that you will not be the same person as a senior in college as you are right now.

[Obi-wan]

Fair enough, I guess I'll take a look at what colleges I get accepted into first and what kind of financial aid they're offering first lol, ED results should be coming out soon @__@;

Thanks for the opinions though guys!

[jbradfor]

ED results should be coming out soon @__@

Sorry to hear about your medical problem. May @__@ become @^@ soon!

[Obi-wan]

ED = early decision

lol

[cui ruide]

The New York Times has comments and a section dealing with this question. Check it.

[abcdefg]

The New York Times has comments and a section dealing with this question.

This related New York Times article is also interesting background reading. Nothing really new, just put together well. "China's Army of Graduates Struggles for Jobs." http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/12/world/asia/12beijing.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=a2

[Christophe13]

How about doing a undergraduate in China and then a Master in a Western country?