Is learning Chinese really all that worthwhile?

[mpallard]

I've been studying Chinese in Taiwan for more than a year now and I'm really starting to question the usefulness of it all.

I think the biggest problem is that while Chinese people can go to western countries and assimilate into their chosen culture it is impossible for white westerners to do the same. I'm also finding that Chinese culture just isn't that interesting (keep in mind I am in Taiwan, maybe it's different in China). It seems like this country is simply a follower of the US with no desire to do anything unique or particularly interesting.

(With this said, however, on an individual level the Taiwainese are very nice people.)

I have been close to moving to the mainland a few times but have been put off by the coments of a few classmates who say that it is very difficult to make friends on the mainland unless you want to spend a lot of time teaching your new "friend" english.

People keep talking about China being the next big thing (personally I have my doubts), but quite frankly recently I have been regreting not studying a western language in a western country where I could actually get into the culture a little more. Add this to the fact that Chinese is freeking hard and unless your willing to spend 2-3 years learning it there really is no point.

I admit that right now I'm at a low point, and that this post has little to do with "Universities and locations". But if anyone else has gone through a similar down period and bounced back I'd like to hear how you did it.

[roddy]

I think we've had the 'assimilating' discussion at length elsewhere - perhaps someone will come up with a link, I can't remember where it was . .

Anyway, I don't think that's the only reason to study Chinese - for work, pleasure, to make a few years of life here easier - there are a million and one reasons. My own is probably that it makes life a lot easier living here and it seems a bit stupid not to study while I'm here.

I have had periods where I kind of give up on studying Chinese. As I've never studied full-time though, I just get on with the rest of my life and wait till I'm motivated again. I tend to go through cycles of studying hard for a few months, then what I like to call a 'consolidation' phase where I don't do any study but pretend to be putting what I studied into practice.

Roddy

[Guest]

Hey, I really feel for you. I've been going through the same feelings my self. I'm in Taiwan, too. From what I can tell, Taiwan IS way more ENGLISH crazed, and way more AMERICA crazed than the mainland is. I've never been there, but all my foreign looking friends who can speak Chinese really well have studied in Mainland China. It seems that living there is much better for immersion and learning about Chinese culture, though you may assimilate even less than you can in Taiwan.

I think assimilation on the whole is pretty impossible considering the reaction everyone has to racial minorities though. I've taught at an "international school" in Taiwan in which most of the children have foreign parents. Many of these Children are white, but have never spent a day outside of Taiwan all of their lives. Unfortunately, they are still not very assimilated into local countries and are treated as outsiders by their "taiwanese" classmates. If they can't assimilate, I sure don't see how you can.

Just give up on assimilation and focus on learning and making friends. And if you make any nice Taiwanese friends who live in Taipei and will speak Chinese to you, please PM me so I can meet 'em too

[xuechengfeng]

Add this to the fact that Chinese is freeking hard and unless your willing to spend 2-3 years learning it there really is no point.

I wasn't aware people typically mastered a language in less than 2-3 years. And I also wasn't aware people mastered Chinese in only 2-3?

[beirne]

I have been close to moving to the mainland a few times but have been put off by the coments of a few classmates who say that it is very difficult to make friends on the mainland unless you want to spend a lot of time teaching your new "friend" english.

People keep talking about China being the next big thing (personally I have my doubts), but quite frankly recently I have been regreting not studying a western language in a western country where I could actually get into the culture a little more. Add this to the fact that Chinese is freeking hard and unless your willing to spend 2-3 years learning it there really is no point.

One thing I'm not exactly clear on is what your goal is. Is it to pick a culture , live there, and become immersed in it? What will you do after that?

[owen]

I think it pays to keep in mind the Chinese tendency to incessantly look backwards historically, which works in conjunction with their profoundly outdated belief that racial purity is important.

Yes, I would say assimilation is all but impossible. Luckily, it can be easily assumed that it's not really worth it either. Why would you want to entangle yourself in such a web of social constraints?

Still.... I like the language, food, music, and some of the people. Nothing really has any use in the end.

[Phillip]

mpallard, I've lived in Taiwan for a year and a half. I've been to mainland China a few times and to me it seemed very different from Taiwan. In particular, I noticed that people didn't look at me. Not a day goes by in Taiwan where I'm not pointed at, or whispered about, or assumed to be American. But in China (I visited Kunming, in Yunnan, and Beijing), I almost felt like checking in the mirror to see if I still looked foreign because I didn't feel it so much.

Has anyone else had this experience? Maybe I just had a good day. I assume Beijing has a lot of Amer, I mean caucasians, so maybe people there are used to us. But then so does Taipei and most Taiwan cities.

Anyway, it struck me more than any of the other differences between the two places (and there seemed to be a LOT of differences--amount of space not least among them).

So, even if assimilation is impossible, being foreign may be less stressful on the mainland.

[mr. fanglang]

For those of us living and studying chinese in taiwan (including myself), it looks like we will have to pack it up and hightail over to the other side of the strait.

Although having no freedom of the press or speech seems like a total drag.

Anyone know of a good school to study chinese in Qingdao?

[mark1888]

I think beirne asked a good question, what are your goals exactly? I think once you've decided on these you'll find it easier to motivate yourself. I've been self studying for just under a year, since I got here and have had plenty of low points like yourself. However reminding myself of my goals seems to help.

First of all while I'm here I'd like to be able to do some basic things by myself and not feel like a 4 year old again. Secondly living in China is a great opportunity to learn. I tried studying for a few months before I came over but found it impossible. Since I got here I've progressed so much quicker as Im surrounded by characters everywhere and people speaking chinese. This really makes me want to understand whats going on around me, otherwise I feel ignorant. I really feel sorry for anyone trying to learn chinese outside China. Finally look at the numbers of people you'll be able to communicate with (in theory anyway), I've even been told that many japanese and koreans can read alot of chinese characters, so you could count them in too!

However I am living in a regional city on the mainland and havent been to taiwan. I'm not sure how much effect this has. But not many people speak english here and the ones that do dont usually speak well. So theres plenty of opportunities for practice, but be prepared to get stared at!

[mpallard]

Those were some good responses, especially the ones about remembering what my goals were.

I think I really need to get out of Taiwan.

I need to get more information on the dating scene in China. Is it difficult to get a Chinese girlfriend? Are Chinese girls shunned for dating foreigners? What's the deal? I had a girlfriend here for a long time and it was really good, I don't know what it would be like on the mainland though.

[travis]

hey...just putting my two cents worth re: taiwan vs china.

admittedly, i have never actually studied mandarin before in the mainland (although i've been there many times), but i have to say - learning chinese in taiwan has undoubtably been the best decision i've made in terms of improving my chinese and learning about chinese people/culture. i think its about making the most out of your environment, wherever you go, be it beijing, southern china or taiwan. i mean, really. making local friends and "assimilating" in a particular environment is not any easier in china than it is in taiwan.

admittedly, taiwan is more different - i dont think its about being more western than it is about being more developed and progressive. Taiwanese culture (especially pop culture amongst the youngins) is astounding in its depth, variety and uniqueness. it is taiwanese and hk pop culture that is leading the sino-world. fundamental freedoms make this country one where there are no boundaries in which culture is shaped or formed. Going to night markets, singing KTV at Holiday, eating taiwanese ma la huo guo and going to the orgy of new years eve pop concerts is taiwanese is taiwanese is taiwanese and cannot be replicated. no, it is not "chinese" in the mainland sense. but it is definately not american.

learning chinese takes time and perserverence. this applies no matter where you go to study it. if you want to be exposed to mandarin and study mandarin you will, and it makes no difference whether you are in china beijing) or taiwan (taipei) because in BOTH countries (or cities at least) mandarin is the main language used. after studying chinese here, ive gone from basically not understanding anything to people not recognising im a "foreigner" on the phone. hard work does it - not where you're at.

accents may differ. but hey - accents differ in the mainland as well, and really, is there really a standardised mandarin? is there a standardised english? is american english really more "correct" or "superior than UK, Canadian, Australian, South American, etc English?

if you are thinking of going over to china, think real hard about the raesons behind leaving. the same problems may very well follow you right across the strait.

[trevelyan]

>> I have been close to moving to the mainland a few times but have been put off by the coments of a few classmates who say that it is very difficult to make friends on the mainland unless you want to spend a lot of time teaching your new "friend" english. <<

Yeah, and I think there are two hurdles. First of all, its tough for people to make friends unless they already speak Chinese since it is difficult for them to express themselves or understand their friends. It's also tough since the lifestyle of the vast, vast majority of the people you'll meet is so different there will be cultural obstacles. Over 25 and not married???

I'm not as dead-set against helping out Chinese people studying English as some other people here, but partly because whenever I've helped someone out, we've always ended up chatting more in Mandarin than English. This is probably a function of my Chinese being better than their English though (not a compliment to my mandarin), which may also be a difference between the mainland and Taiwan. When you speak in English with someone they usually run out of things to say pretty quickly.

[marcopolo79]

I've lived and studied on both the mainland and in Taiwan, and while I don't consider myself an expert, I do think I have the breadth of experience to compare the two.

Studying on the mainland is an experience which is rewarding in it's own right, regardless of how much of the language you might be able to pick up. The do the daily grind in the mainland, be it in Nanjing, Beijing, Harbin, or elsewhere, is to be immersed in an environment that is so ineffably Chinese, so different, and expecially now, so dynamic and full of energy and breakneck change that it will definitely leave an impression, good or bad. You'll be able to acquire a ton of crap (cd's, dvd's, ethnic chotchkes) and, with good planning, be able to travel and to see some incredible sights.

That being said, wherever you go in the mainland, the cirriculum is the same: very intensive timewise (4 hours in the morning everday) yet at the same time, one that progresses very slowly. Most universities that offer classes in China do so in order to augment their state subsidies, as a result, class sizes are large and, regardless of what they might say on the brochures, are offered only when they can fill an entire class. The vast majority of students are Korean and Japanese, and they tend to keep to their own. Additionally, foreign students are usually "contained" on Chinese campuses, and offically you will not have that much direct contact with the students, where ever you may end up (what you do on your own time is another matter entirely). The textbooks are very well written, teachers, however, are more varied in their abilities.

I personally prefer, and have found it to be more productive, to study in Taiwan, for a variety of reasons. One advantage to studying in Taiwan is that there is a ton of money available for scholarships. I've gotten a scholarship, my friend's have all gotten scholarships, apparently any last person under 30 from Central America can get a scholarship; the Taiwanese are desperate for recogonition and are quite willing to whore their educational system out in the vain hopes that it will somehow aid them in their uphill battle to obtain soverignity.

Additionally, if you are enrolled at a language center here, be it NCCU's or ShiDa's, you can take full advantage of the univeristy in a way that is still prohibited in the mainland: you can join clubs, teams (I joined the Kendo team at NCCU), live in the dorms (depending on availability), you're not treated like a foreign element that needs to be contained, which is how students are still treated to a certain extent in the mainland. If you feel you can't achieve immersion in whatever institution you are in here, I think it'll be much harder for you on the Mainland. Plus, if you have an academic interest in a specific area of Chinese culture, whether it be Chinese Art, History, Literature, etc., it's easier here to get an interesting, substantial internship in places like the National Palace Museum, The National History Museum, and even Academia Sinica will take volunteers. The resources and facilities here are very modern, well maintained, and not so different from what you might be used to in your home country.

Regardless of where you go, there is no quick and easy way to acquiring a high level of proficiency without putting in the time, be it on the Mainland or in Taiwan. I really sympathize with you, I remember when I first came to China in 2000 for a semester abroad, I thought I would significantly improve my overall ability. It did improve, but not dramatically (I had 4 semesters of Chinese). I then returned to live in what was suppossedly the best place to study a "pure" form of mandarin, Harbin, but after a year of living there + two months of Chinese class (interrupted by SARS) I still didn't have what I felt was a good grasp of the language. So I came to Taiwan, did a year at NCCU, and my skills were good enough to get me a place at an MA program at TaiDa. The point is, it takes perserverence for any language, most especially Chinese. I would also advise that you don't teach English too much if your main goal is to learn Chinese; it occupies a lot of time during which you can't speak Chinese, and, I feel, the frustration of being open minded towards your student's ability to learn your language while you might feel you have difficulty learning theirs can lead to greater frustration (but maybe I'm projecting).

People will whore you out for your English anywhere in Asia, it can be frustrating and it makes the difficult task of learning Chinese seem all the more impossible. They will also judge you based on your looks, they simply don't have the collective experience of living in a multi-ethnic society that embraces diversity. But if you've been living in Asia for a while, you should have some motivation for being here, decide where you think you'd be able to learn the most and then go there.

[Shingo]

A lot of people have been writing some great pieces on Taiwan versus Mainland. I've really benefitted from it actually. Thanks.

However, not as many posters have addressed the issue of the usefulness of learning Chinese. I haven't studied Chinese yet, but I have concentrated on Japanese. Why? That question will be answered differently for everyone. For me I'm interested in a career involving teaching and international trade. So it may likely be very useful for me in the future to know some East Asian languages. If I don't think that it will be useful, you're only going to live so long. You can stop! No doubt your efforts in study have made you a more interesting person and you'll have a million story's to keep with you even if you move onto something else that you believe will be more useful to focus on. And you can always pickup Chinese in the future. I have studied Japanese for three months. My program is finished and although I don't plan for it, it is possible that I may never study it academically again. Does that bother me? No. I speak better Japanese than before. It is now relatively useful and better than nothing, at least enough to get around with and even have conversations on occasion with people willing to slow down enough with me.

Consider it life experience and then make your choice as to what to do with it and whether to just move on or not. There are plenty of interest things to pursue. And its up to you more than enough else.

Enjoy your options!

[JamesGoff]

for the previous post

Well yes there is standardised Mandarin , thats what you speak around Beijing !

And as with the standardised English , I think you will find that 'proper' English is spoken by those people in ENGLAND who are well spoken , generally went to private school!

hoope this helps

English spoken in America is US english !

[johnmck]

generally went to private school!

Bad English. In good English as spoken in England this should be "public school" :

[JamesGoff]

the reason i used private school , is that all the american readers would have thought i was talking about state run schools as 'public' is used for those schools in the USA.

Describinf schools as Private and Public Schools in engliand are used interchangebly!

not that my english is any good tho!

[lpascoe]

I've been to mainland China a few times and to me it seemed very different from Taiwan. In particular, I noticed that people didn't look at me. Not a day goes by in Taiwan where I'm not pointed at, or whispered about, or assumed to be American. But in China (I visited Kunming, in Yunnan, and Beijing), I almost felt like checking in the mirror to see if I still looked foreign because I didn't feel it so much.

Has anyone else had this experience?

Absolutely. Only spent a few days in Shanghai and Guangzhou but yes, I do remember feeling odd that nobody was staring at me. I went to Korea a few times last year and was stunned by the lack of staring going on. I've lived in Taiwan for over 5 years now, so I feel like something is wrong if people don't stare at me! And trust me, it is worse in the south than it is in Taipei.

[mlomker]

I then returned to live in what was suppossedly the best place to study a "pure" form of mandarin, Harbin, but after a year of living there + two months of Chinese class

I'd like to assume that your lack of progress was because you weren't taking classes that entire time. I was planning to go to Harbin, myself, but I'll be enrolled in college while I'm there.

[Ferno]

Well yes there is standardised Mandarin ' date=' thats what you speak around Beijing !

And as with the standardised English , I think you will find that 'proper' English is spoken by those people in ENGLAND who are well spoken , generally went to private school!

hoope this helps

English spoken in America is US english !

[/quote']

I don't think British English is so good - they swallow a lot of their consonants and sounds. For native speakers it won't make a difference, but for learners who already have to deal with a huge dicrepancy between English spelling and English pronounciation, it'll probably only add to the frustration (sh)