Racism

[Green Pea]

When an Easterner experience "racism", he bows his head and keeps quiet (as nobody will take notice anyway)

When a Westerner experience something similar, he'll make a lot of noise about it (as it simply so unacceptable)

The above attitudes, I think, sum up the reality of racism better than anything else I can say.

Sorry for being such a Green Pea, but I really can't stand comments like yours. I know you were being abstract, but that is the problem. Racism is based on assumption without facts or evaluation. Racism is abstraction, inference, and jumping to conclusions. Racism is maintaining those assumptions despite contrary evidence.

Quote:

I don't confuse ignorance with stupidity. I have no problem with ignorant people. I also don't confuse intelligence with stupidity. In other words, there are a lot of intelligent people who are stupid. There are also many not-so-intelligent people who are quite smart.

I don't get it. Could you elaborate.

I think a lot of what people call racism is not actually racism but people being stupid. In PollyWaffle's example, was that guy racist or just being an idiot and saying stupid things? I do think in many instances, people are just not thinking. Ever see a motorcycle with a father and two kids not wearing helmets cut across 4 lanes of oncoming traffic? This is not thinking in my estimation, ergo being stupid. Why should people make any wiser decisions when dealing with foreigners? Well, then the line of argument is that "they are ignorant and have no experience dealing with foreigners." My point above, is that I recognise many might be ignorant. I'm not going to bash someone for being racist when they've come from the countryside and I'm the first foreigner they've ever met and they something silly. We're all ignorant about something I would guess. In fact, I've had almost no problems from the "ignorant masses". I would rather deal with them any day over the city slickers that have lots of interaction with foreigners and still cling to their racist beliefs.

PollyWaffle makes a good point which is that the guy should have known better. You are in a city, near a university of language students, then why wouldn't you expect a foreigner to speak Chinese? In my view people like this, with a high IQ or not, are being stupid at the minimum and racist at medium but not (fortunately) dicriminatory at the maximum. The funny thing is even if the guy was racist, he wasn't very good at it.

Lastly, I'm sure we all make mistakes and do/say stuff we shouldn't. Personally, I give everyone a break first, but if I detect a pattern comments indicating racist beliefs, then I react. I bow first, then make noise.

[geek_frappa]

ok, i have looked but i can't find any (i wasn't shocked about this)...

dui dui dui ... ni zhao lai zhao qu ... ni zhao bu zhao.

can you enlighten me please?

i cannot enlighten you.

sorry.

[yonglan]

Ah, yes, I think that, in fact, was the dialogue. I've had many of those. Sadly, it no longer shocks me

[geek_frappa]

I bow first, then make noise.

silence is also great. that awkward silence can be very loud sometimes... hehehe...

Sadly, it no longer shocks me

funny!

[PollyWaffle]

i cannot enlighten you.

in the words of the great blackadder, "it is lucky i am wearing my corset...."

[arthurdent]

Racism is ignorance - ignorance is a lack of knowledge...

My own experience in China (Chang Chun/Foshan/Beijing/Tai Yuan) drew me to some conclusions regarding this very issue.

It's true that in cities outside of the main (beijing/shanghai) the locals would stop and stare....and stare...and stare. Without much regard for the fact that 'maybe' I don't actually want to someone staring at me as i sit and enjoy a cigarette on the steps of the building. I never really got upset, but I could see how some people might be. You have to bear in mind that for many of these people it really was the 1st time they had been so close to someone who looked 'very' different to them. This is just natural curiosity.

When the 'youth' would brush up close and shout 'Ni Hao!!!' (as someone in this thread mentions) and then laugh inanely, you do feel like they are taking the piss and being just a tad insensitive. Again though, whilst it isn't good sport, it's just a strange 'reaction' these fools have for attention and recognition. i can rationalise it in such a way that it really doesnt boil down to racism...again...just ignorance. No doubt, if the tables were turned we would also be doing the same - lets no kid ourselves here.

As for 'charging higher than the locals' argument. - That one really is a bit duff. I have heard stories of foreigners being cheated in London, Rome, Prague etc... Being 'ripped off' is your own stupid fault. Sharks are everywhere in this world, u just have to be wise enought to spot them.

One example I can think of happened last year in Foshan. A rickshaw driver who had (literally) driven round a corner wanted 30RMB for a journey that lasted 30 seconds (and we were well aware that the most these guys got was 1 - 3 RMB for a 'long' journey). He stood his ground and so did we...in the end we gave him less than we intended and he lost out. In 6 months, this really was the only example of someone trying to cheat us - Out of 100's of cab/rickshaw journeys during our stay. It could have been anywhere though' = he was using the language barrier to do his fighting and he failed rather miserably as the wife and I are usually very generous tippers.

Occasionally I would hear racist slurs from young (mostly teenage) students and I would ask them "who are your heroes?"....surprise, surprise = Michael Jordan, Jackson....etc. Being a teen somehow gives u an air of invincibilty, chuck in parents who spoil the shit out of you (and pile on the pressure) and we have some worrying generations growing up. The double standards in this regard are very high, but then again, were we any better 30 years ago? Not really. Again, it's just a matter of education and time.

It's easy to play to the stereotypes but I hope that people will at least look at them, analyse them and not lump these actions all in one 'convenient' category = racism.

[gao_bo_han]

Green Pea...racism is the belief that one race is superior to another in certain ways, or all ways. I don't understand your argument about stupid smart people, or smart stupid people, or whatever, so I won't get into that.

The question is, I think, do Chinese consider themselves superior to other races? For example, do Chinese consider themselves smarter than Westerners? How about Filipinos? Do Chinese consider themselves better than Southeast Asians?

Do the Chinese, in general, see Chinese culture as superior to all others, Chinese people as the smartest, healthiest and wise? Have they historically done so? Do they still?

Wish I could get more into this but lunch is over...

[mark1888]

Yeah I have also gotten the impression many times while living here that alot of chinese people simply believe that they as chinese, their country and their culture are simply superior. As someone mentioned earlier this could be a cultural and/or language barrier. If so could someone help me understand this?

I'll give an example

If a conversation lasts more than 10 minutes we get on to how much harder chinese is to learn than english. Which may be true. But the manner and certainty in which it is said suggests its a given fact that and that its some kind of achievement. Despite the fact that neither person is really in a postition to give more than their opinion as their a native chinese speaker and I'm a native english speaker.

Its probably just that I consider myself open minded and I'll make my mind up or change it depending on imformation or experiences. Maybe most of the chinese people I meet haven't experienced enough foreign culture or accurate information on foreign culture to be open minded about it. Perhaps it could also be that they can't be honest when speaking to foreigners on certain topics. Any ideas?

[Quest]

Maybe most of the chinese people I meet haven't experienced enough foreign culture or accurate information on foreign culture to be open minded about it. Perhaps it could also be that they can't be honest when speaking to foreigners on certain topics. Any ideas?

50+ years of communist slogans and propaganda...

"Hail our great and glorious motherland!!"

It will take at least a couple more generations for Chinese minds to line up with the rest of the world.

[gao_bo_han]

Quest, please, please tell me you don't think Chinese centrism started with the Communist Revolution.

[Quest]

Quest, please, please tell me you don't think Chinese centrism started with the Communist Revolution.

I thought Feudal times dont count?

[Green Pea]

Racism is ignorance - ignorance is a lack of knowledge...

Almost, but not quite. It's a fallacy to believe lack of knowledge is the basis of racism. Knowledge + a change in behaviour is required. Take smoking as an analogy. Most smokers are aware of the health hazards but many continue to smoke. Same thing for racism.

It's easy to play to the stereotypes but I hope that people will at least look at them, analyse them and not lump these actions all in one 'convenient' category = racism.

Solid point.

Green Pea...racism is the belief that one race is superior to another in certain ways, or all ways.

That's a part of what I'm saying. Believing in one's own superiority is an efficient way to avoid thinking and analysis. Even when one is not superior, it's often just easier to believe you are to avoid any contrary evidence, criticism, or other positions.

[gao_bo_han]

I thought Feudal times dont count?

On the assumption the overwhelming majority of Chinese history counts, then yes, feudal times count. The Communists played on the idea of Chinese superiority, and it wasn't the first time in Chinese history a charismatic leader fueled intense nationlistic fervor. Saying the Reds created Chinese nationlism is as ignorant as claiming Hitler created German nationalism.

[Quest]

Saying the Reds created Chinese nationlism is as ignorant as claiming Hitler created German nationalism.

I don't think we are on the same page. Nationalism existed in every part of the world since time immemorial. The idea that we should be open minded about other cultures and other people is what I would think a pretty modern "invention", or there wouldn't be so many wars in history. If we take the past into account, then everybody was just the same everywhere.

I don't know why the heck you got so upset about what I said. No one said the communists created Chinese nationalism, I just gave you an explanation why Chinese people seem to be less open minded about other cultures and ideas, simply because they grew up in a different environment. As new ideas continue to flow into China, I think the situation will change, and I just predicted that it will take at least a couple more generations for the general population to absorb these new ideas, so that they will at least attempt to hide their true feelings (isn't that what most of us are doing?). Why did that bother you so much?

Most people alive today grew up within the last 50 years. If every new born baby is like a blank piece of paper, I don't see why the hell the past would have any direct effect on a person, unless you were sugguesting some kind of Chinese genetic inclination for super nationalism.

[owen]

arthurdent....

Racism is ignorance - ignorance is a lack of knowledge...

you say this, and then go on to say,

it really doesnt boil down to racism...again...just ignorance

i don't really get what your definition of racism is.

as for me, i don't think it is ignorance alone, and i also think it needn't necsessarily include feelings of superiority. i think it is simply the (mistaken) belief that another race is fundamentally (biologically, mentally, spiritually) different from your own. feelings of superiority often come into play naturally since, as green pea pointed out, believing in one's own superiority is an efficiently lazy escape to dealing with differences.

also,

As for 'charging higher than the locals' argument. - That one really is a bit duff. I have heard stories of foreigners being cheated in London, Rome, Prague etc... Being 'ripped off' is your own stupid fault. Sharks are everywhere in this world, u just have to be wise enought to spot them.

you are just wrong here. the difference being legislation. yes, there are con artists everywhere, but they are outside of the law. the difference in china (india and vietnam for that matter too) being that the government actually legislates these rip offs. i.e. foreigners are restricted from the more reasonable rates as far as accomodation goes.... RESTRICTED!....... LEGALLY!!!!!!!!!!!

and their excuse? from as far as i can gather, they deem that the restricted places are 'not good enough' for 'our foreign guests'. i have seen several of them (in fact most of them are) and they are so many times better than some of the overpriced dives i've stayed in. until recently foreigners could only ride soft berth on trains to... those hard berths would just be too hard for our fragile western frames. better to restrict us from even choosing.

[gao_bo_han]

Methinks you are the one getting upset, Quest. You did imply that the idea of Chinese supremacy began with Communist propoganda, and I'm suggesting Chinese centrism is as old as China itself. The past culture of China very much affects the way the old bring up the young, as well as how the old were brought up themselves, and so on and so forth. It isn't just 50 years of upbringing, but centuries of national upbringing that has created the "we people here, you people there" mentality so common in China. Do you disagree?

As new ideas continue to flow into China, I think the situation will change, and I just predicted that it will take at least a couple more generations for the general population to absorb these new ideas, so that they will at least attempt to hide their true feelings (isn't that what most of us are doing?).

I agree.

[Jose]

...and I'm suggesting Chinese centrism is as old as China itself

And eurocentrism is as old as Europe itself... Big cultural areas tend to think of themselves as more advanced than the rest of the world. This is pretty universal.

Even in a young country like the USA, with its obvious historical links with Europe and the rest of the Americas, some politicians refer to the country as "the greatest nation on Earth". I wonder what the international reaction would be if a Chinese leader said something like that.

[owen]

Even in a young country like the USA, with its obvious historical links with Europe and the rest of the Americas, some politicians refer to the country as "the greatest nation on Earth". I wonder what the international reaction would be if a Chinese leader said something like that.

i'll eat my right foot if they haven't said that and worse -that is, more nationalistic.

[frozenmyth]

Wow.

A hot discussion.

How PollyWaffle was treated was definitely highly irritating.

Please don't let that kind of pathetic Chinese be your total mental frame of Chinese & China, and keep in mind that there is plenty of good ones around too. 1/5 of the global population, woman.

We are all humans and too many ignorant, stupid, scared, lazy, and weird ones. I believe that many of us here, regardless of being Asians, Westerners, or else, have travelled. Maybe those who travelled are the ones with more hope to make the world better and have better capabilities to create more harmony. Not all of us, but I sure hope that many of us will contribute a little. Bit by bit together, in different parts of our world, that will be a force.

Yes, a lot of annoying and stupid Chinese. Again 1/5 of the global population, and there is plenty of good Chinese too. On the other hand, don't many Chinese get treated unfairly elsewhere too? Many Westerners also think of Chinese of being inferior, and many of us already addressed some different mentalities here too.

Most Chinese certainly lack an understanding of the West.

How many Westerners know China like Europe & America?

If we were in a different platform and listen to Chinese abroad they'd probably be talking about all the same and similar stuffs we discuss here.

The difference would be they would be saying oh, West this and like, Westerners do not know or understand what Chinese this and that.

Again, please think. As people who have true exposures to the difference between the West and East, maybe we are the ones to start and have better chance to make the world more harmonious bit by bit somehow together. We can choose to be different from our own people, the ones who do not know or understand, and be as truly more cosmopolitan. It will make our life more difficult in some ways, but it will also make later generations live in more harmony and less those kinds of bad feelings.

Please help.

[Quest]

If we were in a different platform and listen to Chinese abroad they'd probably be talking about all the same and similar stuffs we discuss here.

much worse stuff.

I don't understand why some people call courtesy racism...