Racism

[Pravit]

Pravit, concerning your post, my Taiwanese-born, American-raised wife looked it over and laughed. She says she can only remember one such instance where she grew up in a small town in East Texas, in junior high school when another student gave her the "ching chong" routine. Once, in her many years in the United States. She did agree with you that it felt nice to walk around Taiwan and have no one notice her at all though

Your wife's experiences may have been different from mine. It happened to me several times. And no offense to your wife, but I seriously think Asians need to stop chuckling and forgetting about this kind of stuff if they want to get rid of it completely. You don't see black people chuckling about people coming up to them and emulating black English or making remarks about their facial features, do you? I repeat it again, you are not Asian, you have no idea of what happens to us in your country.

By the way, what kind of shithole university did you go to where students laughed at an Asian professor and yelled "I like fried rice"!? I majored in East Asian Politics, and took 5 semesters of Chinese language, and never saw anything remotely close to what you said. And trust me, I had two visiting professors from China and South Korea who had truly poor English. Sorry, but I don't believe you on this one

Why yes, gao_bo_han, I happen to spend my free time making up stuff so people will feel sympathy for me. It is nice that you were able to attend a university that was free of this kind of ignorance; however, it does not mean students at all other universities will be like the ones you experienced.

The shithole university I go to is New Mexico State University. This happened in my Physics class not long ago. The US has more ignorant idiots than you think. Though I guess I can understand why such racism is still around, considering there are so many Americans like you who either deny that it exists or pass it off as nothing.

BTW, since I started a new page and all, some people may have missed marcopolo79's excellent post near the end of the last page. I hate it when this happens

[Quest]

I live in the US, and I have to agree with Pravit on this, though I have learned to deal with this kind of things.

[bhchao]

To make a long story short, the Chinese have always viewed their culture as the hallmark of civilization, but it was only recently that this acquired a racial component. I think it is also worth pointing out that the racialized notion of Chinese superiority was, as in Meiji/Taisho era Japan, a direct result of Western Imperialism, and would not have arose if it had not first encountered Western race based views on humanity.

I agree for the most part with Marco, but the Chinese view of their culture as the center of civilization led indirectly to Chinese nationalism today, while European imperialism led directly to it.

This Chinese-centric view of China as the center of the world was a major factor in the stubborn refusal of the 19th century Qing rulers to accept change and modernize, despite the obvious realities that China was lagging far behind other countries in the rapidly industrializing world. Many of us may recall that the emperor Qianlong in the 1790's requested Lord Macartney to kowtow to him as a sign of subservience. Qianlong wrote in his history books that Macartney kowtowed to him, but the British lord really didn't because such an act would be extremely humiliating.

This rigidity helped cause China to be dominated by Western countries and to endure a century-long era of humiliation. By the time of 康有為and 梁啟超's reformist movement in the late 19th century, it was too late to deal effectively with the Western imperialist powers. Due to the previous unpleasant encounters with Western imperialism and Japan, the Chinese mentality today is "Never again will we be dominated by other countries. We are a proud people and we will stand up to any country that tries to bully us."

[Ian_Lee]

Marco's encounter at Harbin's hotel has probably nothing to do with racism.

Why? Very simple. Because not too long ago, such special treatment for foreigners did not exclusively apply to foreigners. "Compatriots" from Taiwan, HK and Macau were treated the same way.

Even today, when these "compatriots" plan to visit Tibet, they are also required to apply for "Tibet Entry Permit" as most foreigners like you do.

Despite Tibet Party Secretary promised in HK two years ago that such permit would be waived, the latest news I heard is that HK compatriots are still required to obtain such weird permit.

On the other hand, if you read fellow poster Pazu's Tibet travel journal, HK compatriots are allowed to visit the "Restricted Area" in Tibet like Sino-Indian frontier while Chinese are not.

So you should blame the PRC's ludicrous (and ripoff) policy instead of racism.

[gato]

Pravit, I think it is unfortunate that you have encuntered so much ignorance and stupidity, but I can assure you that is the result of individual idiots and not indicative of anti-Asian racist trends in American society. For the past 20 -30 years the American government has actively advocated the ideals of multiculturalism. It's my belief that the elevation of political correctness to the level of sacrosanct ideology can cause a backlash, and that political correctness obscures some race based issues that sorely need to be discussed, but overall the level of racism as an active force is relatively minor.

In my experience, many Chinese (as well other Asians), both in their ancestral countries and abroad, still have an inferiority complex when it comes to dealing with whites. What Asians deal with the in the U.S. and other white-dominated countries is quite the opposite.

The important point here is that the government is officially supportive of multi-culturalism (although far less so under the current administration) and the notion of a purely white America is a notion that has been statistically, culturally, and politically consigned to the dust bin of history.

Yes, but that's the government speaking. That attitude of equality hasn't necessarily reached the everyday level. We see a parallel situation in India with the so-called "Untouchables." The Indian government has a strong non-discrimination policy and a much more coercive affirmative action program than the U.S. Yet the "Untouchables" still suffer much social discrimination in India. Asian in the West don't have it that bad, but they do still suffer a great deal of social discrimination. This is not something that can be legislated against, in my opinion. It tooks Jews many generations to achieve something close to social equality in America. I would guess that it will take Asians just as long, if not longer (because of the much greater physical difference).

My view is that cultural assimilation (which is happening) is the quickest and probably the only way to full social equality. Some cultural nationalists don't like that, but that's the way it is. If you want to be fully Asian, you need to go back to Asia.

[marcopolo79]

I'm not saying that merely legislating or espousing a social ideal will make it spontaneously happen, I was merely pointing out that both American society and government as a whole has accepted multiculturalism as a fundamental component of American identity, and showing how this differs from the Chinese government's promotion of identity.

In my experience, many Chinese (as well other Asians), both in their ancestral countries and abroad, still have an inferiority complex when it comes to dealing with whites. What Asians deal with the in the U.S. and other white-dominated countries is quite the opposite.

To frame the debate on Asians and racism in America solely as a white vs. Asian issue is a gross simplification, inter-ethnic tensions and racist attitudes in America arise from lack of contact and understanding between all ethnic groups, it's not the exclusive domain of "white" Americans.

It tooks Jews many generations to achieve something close to social equality in America. I would guess that it will take Asians just as long, if not longer (because of the much greater physical difference).

My view is that cultural assimilation (which is happening) is the quickest and probably the only way to full social equality.

I think you're conflating seperate issues here, as far as I know, there are no cultural practices (other than a predilection for eating dog :smile)that Asians have which would deny them anything in American society. Additionally, Asians are not socially disadvantaged, at least not in the way Jews, Blacks, and Asians were in the first half of the 20th century. In what way do Asians lack social equality? You say that people discriminate against you based on your looks, then claim cultural assimilation is the answer, but no amount of cultural assimilation will be able to change the way you look! Asians have, overall, been very successful in American society, there might be some people who resent them for that fact, there might be some people who are totally ignorant of how somebody can look dramatically different yet still claim to be just like them, but I believe that these views are confined to a small minority of the population and run counter to broader cultural trends. The goal of multiculturalism is not to assimilate, rather, it is to appreciate the differences that each group contributes to society while celebrating the common aspects and values we share that binds us under the rule of the republic.

We see a parallel situation in India with the so-called "Untouchables."

It is in no way comparable to the situation of the untouchables in India. No Asian person would be denied service in a restaurant or hospital, be consigned to live in slums and work at the most menial positions, or have their lot in life determined from the moment of birth.

American society is not perfect, many groups still face many hurdles, yet American society has made great strides in the past 4 decades. Asians in American might encounter ignorance in many forms, but not to the extent that it impairs their social mobility, and certainly do not face the kind of insitutionalized discriminatory practices or social prejudices that impact homosexuals or Native Americans.

[owen]

Ya... great post marco polo. If I knew more, could write better, and leave my feelings out of it thats what I would have said. (referring to the 3rd page as i don't have time to read the rest right now)

[geraldc]

I'd always assumed that charging foriegners more, was merely socialism in action. A form of informal international progressive taxation

However would anyone consider giving up their current nationality, and settling down in China or Taiwan just to be charged the same amount as a local?

The west has gone down the path of multiculturalism because they need specific skills and/or a cheap labour force, the quickest solution to that is to encourage immigration. China on the other hand has a large enough labour force, what it wants is technology/capital machinery. Fair pricing for tourists really isn't a high priority, although it will be interesting to see what happens with the tourism boom during the Beijing Olympics.

[gato]

I think you're conflating seperate issues here, as far as I know, there are no cultural practices (other than a predilection for eating dog :smile)that Asians have which would deny them anything in American society.

But the cultural differences are immense. Asians don't have the "hipness" that make them attractive culturally in America, despite the buzz we see from time to time in the media. You and other non-Asians on this forum may be Asian-philes and not realize this, but maybe you can try to think how many of your friends or family members ACTIVELY admire Asian culture, or more concretely, how many idolize an Asian person. I doubt it would be many. By comparison, Jewish, black, or Latin culture have many more admirers.

Additionally, Asians are not socially disadvantaged, at least not in the way Jews, Blacks, and Asians were in the first half of the 20th century. In what way do Asians lack social equality?

You're not thinking of the full meaning of "social discrimination." In its most banal form, I see Asians not being treated with the level of warmth, or even courtesy, as white customers in shops. I have experienced it myself countless times, seeing a white customer in front being greeted warmly by the white cashier and then getting no greeting at all when it came my turn. I'm not sure you would notice something like this if you're white.

But it is true that there's relative little discrimination against Asian in employment, particularly for jobs that require a high degree of technical skills. Asians are thought of hard workers, though there surely are many slackers among us.

You say that people discriminate against you based on your looks, then claim cultural assimilation is the answer, but no amount of cultural assimilation will be able to change the way you look!

You can't change your own look, but you can determine the look of your potential offsprings. I would encourage my fellow Asian-Americans to have kids with non-Asians. It's harder for Asian male than for Asian female because they face more discrimination in the dating market, but I'd encourage it to the extent possible. It's an un-orthodox position, but you might have heard it expressed in "Bullworth" as a way of reducing racism.

The goal of multiculturalism is not to assimilate, rather, it is to appreciate the differences that each group contributes to society while celebrating the common aspects and values we share that binds us under the rule of the republic.

Yes, that is the ideal we learn in our classes and broadcast by the politically correct media, but hardly the reality as of yet. Multiculturalism is a great message to the majority, namely whites in America, but it shouldn't be taken as practical advice by minority members here. If you don't adopt the dominant cultural norms (the white culture, practically speaking), then you will have a hard time dealing with whites socially. Whites are not going to adopt your cultural norms.

I appreciate your idealism, but you have to face reality, too.

But I'm an optimist, too. I reckon things will be better when we are all old farts.

[Quest]

You can't change your own look, but you can determine the look of your potential offsprings. I would encourage my fellow Asian-Americans to have kids with non-Asians.

I would encourage otherwise.

What's wrong with the asian look? I think Asians, both females and males are beautiful. They were just so poor in recent history that they gave people this 3rd world impression -- skinny dirty short bad taste etc

It's an impression that will take sometime to fade, but there's nothing inherently wrong with looking asian.

I am not against interracial marriages, but I guess I can never understand people who "encourage my fellow Asian-Americans to have kids with non-Asians" just for the purpose of changing their kids racial signature. Gato, are you Chinese? I'd be very shocked if you are 1st generation Chinese. I will always prefer having kids who look like myself, you can call me traditional or racist.

In my experience, many Chinese (as well other Asians), both in their ancestral countries and abroad, still have an inferiority complex when it comes to dealing with whites.

That suits you, or maybe Chinese that were born abroad, but not those in their ancestral countries, I think they only have a superiority complex.

[marcopolo79]

You're not thinking of the full meaning of "social discrimination." In its most banal form, I see Asians not being treated with the level of warmth, or even courtesy, as white customers in shops. I have experienced it myself countless times, seeing a white customer in front being greeted warmly by the white cashier and then getting no greeting at all when it came my turn. I'm not sure you would notice something like this if you're white.

Highly subjective, hard to prove it exists.

You can't change your own look, but you can determine the look of your potential offsprings. I would encourage my fellow Asian-Americans to have kids with non-Asians. It's harder for Asian male than for Asian female because they face more discrimination in the dating market, but I'd encourage it to the extent possible. It's an un-orthodox position, but you might have heard it expressed in "Bullworth" as a way of reducing racism.

Good god, why?

Is this the Michael Jackson method of child rearing?

you and other non-Asians on this forum may be Asian-philes and not realize this, but maybe you can try to think how many of your friends or family members ACTIVELY admire Asian culture, or more concretely, how many idolize an Asian person. I doubt it would be many. By comparison, Jewish, black, or Latin culture have many more admirers.

I'm Jewish, where the hell are all my admirers? Last time I checked, getting a circumcision and having your mother guilt you into never leaving home wasn't the latest cultural fad. This probably wasn't even worth responding to.

[Quest]

Highly subjective, hard to prove it exists.

Having experienced such things (racial discrimination) first hand and every so often, I find it somewhat disturbing that some of you still try to discredit it.

That said, however, it can sometimes be fun watching those idiots show you that attitude or make fun of you thinking he/she's smarter and 屎。 it's true that idiots like that become fewer in the technical world.

[gato]

I'm Jewish, where the hell are all my admirers? Last time I checked, getting a circumcision and having your mother guilt you into never leaving home wasn't the latest cultural fad. This probably wasn't even worth responding to.

Maybe Bob Zimmerman's or Jerry Seinfeld's glory will rub off on you.

[amperel]

I'm Jewish, where the hell are all my admirers?

at least you have woody allen... or not - forgot he married sun-yi btw is she chinese?

[gato]

It's an impression that will take sometime to fade, but there's nothing inherently wrong with looking asian.

Nothing inherently wrong. But you'll be discriminated against more often nevertheless.

I am not against interracial marriages, but I guess I can never understand people who "encourage my fellow Asian-Americans to have kids with non-Asians" just for the purpose of changing their kids racial signature. Gato, are you Chinese? I'd be very shocked if you are 1st generation Chinese. I will always prefer having kids who look like myself, you can call me traditional or racist.

Yes, I'm Chinese, born in Beijing, grew up in Shanghai as a kid. I guess I tend to think "out-of-the-box," shall we say.

That suits you, or maybe Chinese that were born abroad, but not those in their ancestral countries, I think they only have a superiority complex.

Not in those I know, at least not those of my parents' generation. Maybe those "princes" and "princesses" born post-1980 are different.

[carlo]

Considering what it was like 50 years ago in the US (anti-miscegenation laws!), and how much China has changed in the last twenty years alone, shouldn't we be surprised at how *little* discrimination there is in China? Maybe we should give them time.

This being said, being greeted with 鬼子来了 is hardly an example of Confucian courtesy.

The proper way of assimilating barbarians is to treat them like kings, so that they never leave and marry a local beauty, and in a couple of generations everybody is "the same" as everybody else. This strategy has backfired in some cases (notably in the last 200 years, when our European ancestors took the girls AND left), but I still have to hear of a better one.

[marcopolo79]

Having experienced such things (racial discrimination) first hand and every so often, I find it somewhat disturbing that some of you still try to discredit it.

I'm not trying to discredit anything. I wouldn't presume to speak on behalf of nearly 300,000,000 Americans, some of whom, I have no doubt, harbour some negative, if not outright racist thoughts, towards Asians and others.

However, I think that it's hard to percisely say that the motivation for this kind of behaviour is always racism. People who react differently to Asians might be uncomfortable, might not be used to interacting with Asians, and most likely are closed minded to a certain extent, but is this racism or just plain ignorance?

Honestly, as a Gay American, I think that there is much more overt and pernicious discrimination directed at me than the kind described by the above poster. American society as a whole frowns upon racial discrimination, while certain people's behaviour might belie this notion, their behavior is still dictated by cultural norms that all of us must be treated equally. While certain people might not make you feel welcome, you can not be excluded, it would contravene the prevailing social standard as well as legal precedent. No country can ever be expected to be fully populated by benevolent, enlightened beings, I don't mean to make light of your experiences or to say that they don't exist, I merely wish to point out that they are the result from differing interpretations of interpersonal relations, and I contrast them to what I find to be actively exclusionary and discriminatory perceptions and laws that act against me in my life which are socially condoned.

[gato]

I contrast them to what I find to be actively exclusionary and discriminatory perceptions and laws that act against me in my life which are socially condoned.

Yes and no. There're several major cities in the U.S. (e.g. SF, NYC, DC, LA) where gays would not feel much discrimination at all. Well, gays can't get married outside of Massachusetts yet, but does that make you feel bad on a daily basis?

There's also a trend in the media to make gays look cool, shows like "Will and Grace" and "Queer Eyes for the Straight Guy" for example. There're no Asian equivalents as of yet. Kungfu chopsuey doesn't count.

[marcopolo79]

Yes and no. There're several major cities in the U.S. (e.g. SF, NYC, DC, LA) where gays would not feel much discrimination at all. Well, gays can't get married outside of Massachusetts yet, but does that make you feel bad on a daily basis?

I don't think either of us should settle for mere tolerance or regional "friendly areas"

There's also a trend in the media to make gays look cool, shows like "Will and Grace" and "Queer Eyes for the Straight Guy" for example. There're no Asian equivalents as of yet. Kungfu chopsuey doesn't count.

I hate to tell you, what people find entertaining and what they find acceptable are two entirely different things. Minstrel Blackface shows were popular for a very long time, but they didn't exactly endear the populace to African-Americans. Furthermore, I don't see why you obsess over the trendiness of a particular group. There are numerous examples of Asian influence on American culture, particularly youth culture, that amply illustrate the appeal of Asian culture.

[gato]

I hate to tell you, what people find entertaining and what they find acceptable are two entirely different things. Minstrel Blackface shows were popular for a very long time, but they didn't exactly endear the populace to African-Americans. Furthermore, I don't see why you obsess over the trendiness of a particular group. There are numerous examples of Asian influence on American culture, particularly youth culture, that amply illustrate the appeal of Asian culture.

I don't know if you've seen "Will and Grace" or "Queer Eyes" or the new lesbian series on HBO (I forgot the name). The gay characters on these shows are not minstrel-show characters. They are drawn so that the audience would identify with them or admire them.

Asian influence on youth culture? Give me some concrete examples from outside the Pokemon crowd. The so-called Asian chic is greatly exaggerated, from where I sit. Again, kungfu movies don't count. I'd love to see Asians become trendy in the U.S., but it hasn't happened, yet. Many of us Asian-Americans would love to see that.

Anyway, we shouldn't be competing to prove whether Asians or gays or anyone else suffer more discrimination. It's quite unseemly. I was just surprised that so many posters here would readily dismiss Asian-American posters' personal accounts of discrimination.