Racism

[wushijiao]

I went to a brutal American high school where it would be hard to imagine Asian-Americans not getting picked on or beaten up. In my school, some of our Red State-ish football fans taunted some members of an opposing football team, saying they were “a bunch of n*ggers”. Likewise, most of the black transfer students had to leave the school eventually because of harassment. Was this overt racism in anyway widespread in the school? No. Most people were friendly and non-racist. Yet I can certainly imagine the racism that people like Pravit have demonstrated to be fact. I think there is still an undercurrent of wrathful bitterness that poor white Americans feel because they were left behind by globalization and jumped over by ambitious minorities with affirmative action.

In any case, once a society is civilized to the point where overt KKK-style racism is almost non-existent, I think one then has to look at institutional racism. In the US, the various media still unjustly socially construct stereotypes that people unconsciously accept. Similarly, other institutions like banks, prisons, hospitals and schools all subtly favor whites. Yet, as marcopolo pointed out, can this compare to the Hans's social position in China? Orwell said that ugly, unpleasant things are always named for their opposites. “Joy Divisions” were Nazi brothels and “Comfort Women” were slave prostitutes during WWII. And thus I laugh every time I hear the euphemistic term “Autonomous Region”, which is a pure sham. Ethnic minorities in China, if we want to put things in American terms, seem to be living in some sort of slavery/Jim Crow existence. At its best, maybe an “Invisible Man”-type scenario: they do their token, colorful dances for the rest of society to gawk at. I’d like to say that things are getting better, but from what I’ve read and seen, it doesn’t appear to be the case. Never mind the fact that the current “President” was complicit in a bloody crackdown in a so-called “Autonomous Region”.

As far as denying foreigners rights in China, I don’t think that is racism as much as it is a mixture of provincialism, xenophobia and corruption. That is, I believe, getting better rapidly. I haven’t been denied a hotel room since they changed that law (in early 2003?).

[owen]

Gato, are you Chinese? I'd be very shocked if you are 1st generation Chinese.

translation "Gato, are you one of US? I'd be surprised becasue generally WE prefer to retain our genetic purity."

I will always prefer having kids who look like myself, you can call me traditional or racist.

Once again, i choose racist.

gato.. I am a white canadian who is honestly trying to 'adopt the cultural norms'. I do have an appreciation for chinese culture and history and enjoy learning the language. I am participating in a thread like this specifically because i get frustrated at the culture's seemingly unwillingness to let me embrace and understand it fully. I'm not just talking about a visit to the forbidden city and a refreshment in a traditional tea house. The message recieved in my mind's eye about Chinese culture more and more seems to be that it is for Chinese. Apart from tourism, I don't qualify based on my blood and skin. Of course i can never know at any point whether i am being deliberately shut out or whether its all in my head. All i can do is give examples to show why i feel this way (hotel refusals, 'traditional' chinese families who don't want me near their daughters , etc. )

That said, i think that could be a possible reason for the lack of asian influence in american culture. Perhaps many americans feel the same way i do.... Chinese culture gives no invitations to outsiders.

[vinhlong]

Chinese culture more and more seems to be that it is for Chinese.

This is probably true, but it is possible to become Chinese and accepted as Chinese no matter what race you are. Being Chinese is more determined by your actions than by your blood or skin color.

I'd be surprised becasue generally WE prefer to retain our genetic purity.

??? I don't think it's about genetics....

Chinese culture gives no invitations to outsiders.

No, but it doesn't impose moral values on other cultures either...

Personally I don't think Chinese are particularly racist. While Chinese do have a strong sense of insiders and outsiders, it has little to do with race. If you are an outsider you are treated with skepcis and suspision, but once you are an insider, Chinese will do a lot for you.

If you feel you are treated differently, it probably has to do with the fact that you are an outsider and act differently, not with the fact that you are of a different race.

Outsider and insider has many levels, from sharing the same culture to tracing your roots from the same province, from belonging to the same community, to being part of the same clan.

If you want to be part of the group, you should learn how to become an insider and conform yourself to the customs. This won't happen overnight, but will take time, and you will definitely have to prove yourself.

[gato]

Owen,

The message recieved in my mind's eye about Chinese culture more and more seems to be that it is for Chinese. Apart from tourism, I don't qualify based on my blood and skin. Of course i can never know at any point whether i am being deliberately shut out or whether its all in my head. All i can do is give examples to show why i feel this way (hotel refusals, 'traditional' chinese families who don't want me near their daughters , etc. )

Chinese culture is deeply conservative and less open to outsiders. It may be that you'll never feel like that you're one of them, but I'm sure if you stick to it, you'll find a circle of friends who're open and willing to treat you like one of them.

Like I said before, many Chinese have an inferiority complex when it comes to whites, which often leads to discomfort in social situations.

As for "coming close to daughters," Chinese traditionally have not had the practice of dating, which means boys and girls get to know each so that they could get married. The Chinese parents who discourage their daughters to date foreign are probably of that mentality and think that the foreigners just want to fool around and not serious about marriage. I don't think there's anything wrong with fooling around, but I grew up in the West. Most Chinese in China do not believe in fooling around, or at least they won't admit in public that it's a good thing, even if they indulge it themselves.

Another possibility is the language and/or cultural barrier. Because these Chinese parents have their daughters' marriage in mind, they don't want a son-in-law that they can't communicate with. They also fear that it'll lead to marital problems. I think you'll encounter fewer problems if you demonstrate your full language and cultural fluency.

That said, i think that could be a possible reason for the lack of asian influence in american culture. Perhaps many americans feel the same way i do.... Chinese culture gives no invitations to outsiders.

So you disagree with Marcopolo who said that Asians have great influence on American culture (especially the youth)?

It's not just because Chinese culture gives no invitation to outsiders. I think it's something deeper. The conservativism you've experienced in China is fundamental to Chinese culture. There's a reason why the culture hasn't changed much in 5000 years. That conservatism is not attractive to most Americans and has almost zero chance of being adopted as part of the mainstream American culture. Asian-Americans must leave the conservatism behind if they want to become accepted by the American mainstream.

American pop culture is about sex and freedom. It adopts things like salsa, jazz, hip-hop, and rhythm & blues quite readily. As for Asian culture, Bollywood songs and dances are quite compatible with that ethos, but most things Chinese are not. However, China culture is fumbling to create its own expression of freedom, especially in film and pop music. I think gradually these new culture productions will become more attractive to the West, just as Japanese ones have been for some time and Korean ones are on the verge of becoming.

[Pravit]

Gato, are you Chinese? I'd be very shocked if you are 1st generation Chinese.

translation "Gato, are you one of US? I'd be surprised becasue generally WE prefer to retain our genetic purity."

I will always prefer having kids who look like myself, you can call me traditional or racist.

Once again, i choose racist.

I don't have any problem with interracial marriage or children, so I don't really care what my children end up looking like. But weren't you appalled by gato's suggestion that we try to have kids with white people so that our kids will look more white? It reminds me of the "trying to become white" mentality a lot of Asian-Americans have. Which may stem from this feeling of inferiority that gato mentions.

I think there is still an undercurrent of wrathful bitterness that poor white Americans feel because they were left behind by globalization and jumped over by ambitious minorities with affirmative action.

It's not just white people, though. A lot of other minorities seem to be pretty mad that Asians are overtaking them in the socioeconomic ladder. I live in a town that's about 60% Hispanic, and a lot of the racism I've encountered comes from them.

[gato]

But weren't you appalled by gato's suggestion that we try to have kids with white people so that our kids will look more white? It reminds me of the "trying to become white" mentality a lot of Asian-Americans have. Which may stem from this feeling of inferiority that gato mentions.

Isn't "appalled" a little strong? I said "non-Asian," not "white."

Americans do have a fascination and an affection for mixed race kids.

Everything else being equal, half-Asian half-white kids probably will have the easiest time in the adult white world. Half-Asian half-Latin probably comes next. Blacks suffer much more discrimination than Asians in the U.S. on the balance, so a half-Asian half-black kid probably will fare even worse than a fully Asian kid.

You may consider this line of discussion as insensitive or even non-sensical, but it's the reality as I see it.

[gao_bo_han]

Pravit, I didn't mean to suggest that you've never experienced racism or at least exclusion, though your earlier post did seem a bit exaggerated. I am still having trouble fathoming a college student walking up to a professor and yelling, "I like fried rice!"...but I'll take your word on it.

You say I can't have any idea at all what it's like to be an Asian in America...well, my wife is, and she's explained her experiences, so I think I have some idea of what her life has been like. I think what annoys me and many others on this forum is that we have been raised with the idea that racism is evil, and we go out of our way to avoid prejudice and exclusionary behavior against minorities, and then only to hear that minorities still feel isolated and pissed off. As marcopolo pointed out, the American government, and its people IN GENERAL, celebrate diversity and use racism as a dirty word. I don't know anyone in my generation raised with out and out racist attitudes.

But you know, I can relate to you as well, as can many others here. During my semester in Taiwan, I got a hefty helping of isolation, staring, pointing with "hawh, nage waiguoren name gao!", or "ni kan! hai you yi ge waiguoren gen piaoliang de taiwan xiaojie. zhen kexi!", and my wife got her own taste of bitterness with people bugging her about her poor Chinese, marrying so young, especially to a "foreigner", etc. We heard these things on a day to day basis, not just every now and then. My wife likes the US better than Taiwan (her birth country), because she experiences less discrimination here, knows the language fluently, and people respect her and our privacy. At least to some Asian Americans, America is a more welcoming home than Asia.

Quest, I am not remotely surprised that you couldn't imagine your kids being of mixed race (and I suppose we can infer you couldn't imagine your wife not being Chinese as well). Substitute "grandkids" in place of "kids" and you have the ignorant, racist attitudes of so many "traditional" Chinese families that mixed race couples have had to overwhelm and overcome. Not surprised one bit. It's hard to imagine you really have "no problems" with mixed race couples when the thought of your child being of mixed race repulses you. So you can't imagine your kids not looking like you? What if they look like both your wife and you? Would that be ok? I hope you fall madly in love with a blue-eyed, blond-haired Scandinavian and have lots of mixed race babies. Then maybe you'll lighten up

[Pravit]

Gato, I have nothing against white people But it does seem a little strange to marry a non-Asian for the sake of making your kids look non-Asian. I agree that mixed Asian children will probably have an easier time in the US, but I still can't accept the idea of intentionally breeding them to come out that way.

About marriage it's kind of off-topic but I always thought Chinese encouraged their daughters to marry young. Well, maybe not encourage, but isn't in considered strange in China for a 30-year old woman to be unmarried?

[Ian_Lee]

If some posters take the political term "autonomus region" too seriously, then of course he must be despaired.

In fact, other than the "autonomus" regions, no provinces have ever been autonomus (which is quite contrary to what Mao advocated in 1918 when he was an activist in Hunan).

Take Guangdong as an example. In PRC history, never have there been any Cantonese occupying the most important post in the province -- the Provincial Party Secretary.

All provinces are not autonomous. So aren't the "autonomus regions". It is not related to racism but to PRC's political structure.

[Quest]

Substitute "grandkids" in place of "kids" and you have the ignorant, racist attitudes of so many "traditional" Chinese families that mixed race couples have had to overwhelm and overcome.

I would call it personal preference rather than ignorance. I am not against interracial marriages, if 缘分 comes I will accept any match. I do believe having a preference is my own business.

[Ian_Lee]

you have the ignorant, racist attitudes of so many "traditional" Chinese families that mixed race couples have had to overwhelm and overcome.

I guess Chiang Kai Shek's family was very traditional. But Chiang had a Russian daughter-in-law and many mixed blood grandkids and grand-grandkids. In fact, she just passed away yesterday:

http://61.144.25.119/gate/big5/www.southcn.com/news/hktwma/shizheng/200412150519.htm

If Old Bald Head Chiang could accept mixed race couple into his family, I think no other Chinese families could not!

[gato]

I guess Chiang Kai Shek's family was very traditional. But Chiang had a Russian daughter-in-law and many mixed blood grandkids and grand-grandkids. In fact, she just passed away yesterday:

http://61.144.25.119/gate/big5/www.southcn.com/news/hktwma/shizheng/200412150519.htm

If Old Bald Head Chiang could accept mixed race couple into his family, I think no other Chinese families could not!

Very touching story. Beautifully written. I find articles in Taiwanese papers to have more of a human touch, the ones from the mainland a bit sterile.

蔣經國在世時，蔣方良和四個兒女的生日，以及蔣經國夫婦的結婚紀念日，全家一定回家團聚在一起，舉辦一場簡單的家庭Party，切蛋糕、開香檳。有時蔣經國興致高，除了當場親吻蔣方良外，也會在兒女的起鬨、簇擁下，與愛妻共舞，十分熱鬧。

但蔣方良來自俄國的血統，卻為蔣家後代基因產生重要改變，從三個兒子都是標準混血兒的濃眉大眼外，第四代的蔣家人不少都有著非常洋化的外表。以蔣孝勇和蔣方智怡所生的三個兒子為例，每個都是標準血帥哥。洋化的外表成為蔣家後代的表徵之一。

[ThePhatGentleman]

http://www.asiazine.com/identity/idn03013.htm

[marcopolo79]

I don't think this is exactly racism, but I believe the following exemplifies how differing cultural backgrounds affect perceptions of ability:

In the Reading & Writing section, a person asked for help translating a few sentences related to marketing. One member was kind enough to translate the entire phrase the OP had posted, but he used a very literal translation for the term "marketer" and "marketing" rather than the actual word which is used in Taiwan/China. When I pointed out that the term as translated was not entirely accurate, the member who translated the paragraph responded by saying:

因為有些英文詞彙並沒有直接的中文名詞

所以翻起來會有些彆扭

但是又怕翻譯的太過頭人家看不懂

所以只好儘量囉

Now, keeping in mind we know nothing about the proficiency level of the OP's Chinese, do you think this kind of attitude is helpful, patronizing, or "racist"? If you were translating something for a non-English speaker, would you translate on the basis of the material, or on what you percieve the ability of the reader to be? Do you feel that this kind of behaviour is indicative of the belief that Chinese modify their language and behavior with foreigners, even Chinese is being used as the medium of communication? Or is this just an isolated case of one person just doing what they thought would be most helpful?

The link to the original post is here

[gato]

Do you feel that this kind of behaviour is indicative of the belief that Chinese modify their language and behavior with foreigners, even Chinese is being used as the medium of communication? Or is this just an isolated case of one person just doing what they thought would be most helpful?

The way I read the series of post, it seems that the guy made a mistake in the translation (translating "marketer" as "market participant") and then tried to excuse himself by saying that he didn't want to use vocabulary that was too difficult. But I don't see any difference in the difficulty level of the characters used in the correct translation and the one he offered.

But we shouldn't be too harsh on him. He tried to help at least. Nobody's perfect.

I can't say whether this is a case of racism, ethnocentricism, bigotry, chauvinism, or xenophobia. I'm inclined to say no. Maybe it's just ego.

[gato]

racism, ethnocentricism, bigotry, chauvinism, or xenophobia

It's a wonder that we so many different words to express roughly the same idea in English. Can someone provide a Chinese equivalent for each? This might not be an easy task.

[marcopolo79]

I think you might be right about what I posted earlier, as for your vocab list, the following I know for a fact to be correct:

Racism 種族主義

Bigotry 固執之行為

Xenophobia 陌生恐怖

Chauvanism (seems to be a transliteration) 沙文主義

As for Ethnocentric, my guess would be 自我族化為中主義, but I'm sure that there is a much better way to express this.

[Guest KuifjeenBobbie]

In China, a female aquaintance asked me,

"I hear you don't like black people and Pakistanis in the UK"

I replied,

"Yes, we have problems with racism"

"What racial problems do you have in China?"

She replied,

"We have no problems with racism. Racism is a problem in foreign countries"

[Lily888]

Hi All! I am new in the forum...

I am spending a few weeks in Beijing and Shanghai, and I am trying my best to learn about the culture as well. I have a question: can someone tell me what the Chinese in general think of black people? (Black students or else).

I got all kind of reactions: from people staring at me with curiosity, smiling or not, pointing at me (trying to be discreet though) so their friend would notice me... I visited several touristic places and and people took pictures or asked if they could pose with me...

The problem is that my Chinese is not good at all (since I just started and I am not staying long enough to make significant progress) Despite what I have described here (which is mostlty curiosity from the locals), it is hard for me to have a clear idea of how colored people are considered.... I sometimes am aware that they (strangers) talk about me, but of course I have no idea whether it is a positive or negative comment...

I read on the post the term "evil foreigner"... Can someone help me ?

Thank you in advance.

[Qcash3]

On my first visit to China I encountered much of the same. My day trip to the great wall was plagued by Chinese tourists wanting to take pictures with me...I didn't let it get to me, and I don't suggest you let it bother you either. Alot of times the locals are simply curious, I mean it's not that often that you see black people walking around in Beijing:mrgreen:. All of the Chinese people that I dealth with on a daily basis were extremely respectful towards me, and we ended up becoming good friends. I am going back to Beijing in August, and I really look forward to it. In more rural areas people wanted to touch my hair and skin and stuff like that, but for the most part no one really bothered me. Lol, I received much more attention on my trip than my non-black friends and it was all positive. When I arrived at the airport in Chengdu, the host families actually argued about who could host me. It may have helped that I could speak decent Chinese, but no worries it is definitely not neccessary. As long as you make a serious attempt to learn the language, everyone will be delighted that you are trying and will tell you that your Chinese is excellent even if you pronounce xie xie shay-shay. I don't know what type of program you are doing, but I would advise hanging out with the locals. Your grasp of the language will improve much more than if you stick with other foreigners, and you'll find that most Chinese are a pretty friendly lot. When I visited beijing two years ago, I was 16, and I spent all of my time hanging out with my host brother and his friends along with some of the foreigners in the group, and I attribute my awesome experience to that interaction. In short, be adventurous and put yourself out there, once the locals figure out that you are not the stereotypical black person they see in movies they will take you on your own terms.