Racism

[boris.yeltsin]

I want to add to Pravit's posts and to everyone's shock and disbelief that people as intelligent and worldly as Westerners could ever make such comments.

I have experienced all the same growing up as an American of Asian descent in New York City. And time and time again when I tell other non-Asians, they are either in disbelief or just don't "get it" (like having to explain the Abercrombie shirt). None of this is surprising, and to this day I still get such comments in the US.

With that said, the tables were turned when I went to China to "get in touch with my roots" - really to de-twinkify myself. The racism I experienced in China is like none other. Many parents accused me of conducting my classes in Chinese (I don't speak it) and that there was no way I could be a native speaker of English. Everywhere else outside the school I was criticized for my poor Chinese while Joe White Boy next to me gets praised for his "zye jeen". The difference between walking around by myself and walking around with a "real foreigner" is astounding - there's just no comparison to the same situation in the States, where many of my friends are "real foreigners". Keep in mind that I can only speak for myself and that my experience in the Philippines and India was MUCH better.

We are SO maligned in American media, and it seriously pisses me off. But at the end of the day, I don't feel that my well-being is *completely* tied to my race and physical appearance the same way it can be in China. In China I was working in an industry where my employment opportunities and salary were clearly and directly limited by my race. In addition, most jobs involving working with foreigners would be off-limits due to my height, of all things. I was initially denied entry into the American embassy because of my race. Shit like this happens in both countries but the difference is that in the US such treatment is considered unacceptable. For all the William Hung crap we get, Asian-Americans in general are living comfortable lives. (Yes, there are many exceptions, but that's another story).

The person who said there is no racism in China because it isn't culturally exposed is about as aware as the Chinese people who say there is no racism in China because there are no black people. And about as aware as the one Chinese parent who, when asked if her complaints about me were really about my race, responded with "This has nothing to do with race. Her accent is very good, but I want a REAL American." In short, just because you don't get it doesn't mean you're not racist.

Pravit - no offense, but the kind of people who give me racist crap in the States are usually people who are either uneducated or beer guzzlers at Joe Schmoe State College, which kinda sounds like your school. I'm guessing the guy who has a Taiwanese wife who disputed your racism claims may be in a social circle more similar to mine, where I very rarely get that treatment at all, and I don't have to do things like explain the Abercrombie shirt.

Sorry this was so long.

[xichg]

I am against inter-racial marriage. And I want my kids to be like me. It's not racism. It's my personal preference. If any of my friends marries a white, I will stop being friends with him/her. That's also my personal prefrence. And I have the freedom to do so.

I have white friends. I have black firneds. I have nothng against them. I just want Chinese to continue to be Chinese. Anythng wrong with that?

And inter-racial couples who think that they are better just because they marry outside the race, that's racist; And if they want to prove that they are more open to diffirent cultures since they marry outside race, that's arrogant and ignorant; And if they think their marriage is of 'truer love' since it's inter-ratical, that's pure stupdiity.

[adrianlondon]

Saying something is so, doesn't make it so.

[Jamoldo]

I was always taught that racism was about hatred, rather than ignorance and I guess I strongly believe it. Being of Indian origin (though born in the US), I get lots of stares in many countries, especially in China, where I have often been asked which restaurant do I/my parents own/work at or if I'm diplomat offspring. There just aren't many minorities in China and its a novelty or a new experience for them. Most people are just curious, and photos, while some find them annoying, are harmless, I have never refused to pose for one, though I usually ask them to take one with my camera! I think that in this case curiousity is far better than fear/hatred due to ignorance/lack of knowledge.

Lily, I don't know about the Chinese opinion of black people, but in my three months in Beijing, I saw only one or two black familes as tourists, the rest were friendly African immigrants asking if I wanted some dope, so this might perpetuate a stereotype in Beijing. Similarly, the few Indians I saw were tourists from the US, or restaurant owners/workers... The Chinese, in my opinion are very curious and will definitely ask away. For example They find the Indian notion of eating with our hands weird and sometimes disgusting, but when told that we think its weird that they use chopsticks, they just smile and laugh. I still remember my cousin and I eating at a Pizza Hut in Urumqi (my poor cousin needed a break from Chinese food) and the waitress was very polite but definitely took the opportunity to ask us numerous questions and have a nice chat with us, no big deal, though some might have found it annoying...

As to the poster about mixed marriages and not being friends anymore if a Chinese marries outside of race, I will really pity you if you have a very good friend that marries outside of the Chinese race. But it is your freedom and liberty to think that no doubt... I would say the majority of the world's population feels that there should not be intermarriage between different races, but to stop being friends seems a bit extreme to me, but that's just my opinion...

[imron]

It's not racism. It's my personal preference.

Hooray, what a great excuse. Unfortunately, this argument falls apart because it would seem that your personal preference IS racism. Just because you decide to call an apple an orange, doesn't stop it from being an apple. Imagine if the boss of a company said "I only hire whites, I don't want to hire any Chinese. It's not racism. It's my personal preference."

Sorry, but such an argument really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[boris.yeltsin]

I am against inter-racial marriage. And I want my kids to be like me. It's not racism. It's my personal preference. If any of my friends marries a white, I will stop being friends with him/her. That's also my personal prefrence.

Makes perfect sense. Just like another Chinese person's comment:

Why is it racism? I just don't like sitting next to black people.

Or the aforementioned favourite:

This isn't about her race. She has a very good accent but I just want a REAL American teacher.

So let's read this again: Just because you don't get it doesn't mean you're not racist.

And what does a Chinese person mean by race? Do they mean just Chinese? In the US, Chinese, Filipinos, and Indians are all considered the same race, but many Chinese think Filipinos and Indians are primitive brown monkeys - do they count? What about a 4th generation American of pure Chinese descent from Hawai'i who spoke no Chinese and had no interest in Chinese culture? What about a person who LOOKED completely white, black, Indian, etc. but is actually half-Chinese and can speak the language? Coming from a mixed family myself, I know plenty of people who fall into both categories. And I bet you have met such people too but dismissed them as "just" white or Chinese or whatever.

[delaSOuL]

Hi All! I am new in the forum...

I am spending a few weeks in Beijing and Shanghai, and I am trying my best to learn about the culture as well. I have a question: can someone tell me what the Chinese in general think of black people? (Black students or else).

I got all kind of reactions: from people staring at me with curiosity, smiling or not, pointing at me (trying to be discreet though) so their friend would notice me... I visited several touristic places and and people took pictures or asked if they could pose with me...

The problem is that my Chinese is not good at all (since I just started and I am not staying long enough to make significant progress) Despite what I have described here (which is mostlty curiosity from the locals), it is hard for me to have a clear idea of how colored people are considered.... I sometimes am aware that they (strangers) talk about me, but of course I have no idea whether it is a positive or negative comment...

I read on the post the term "evil foreigner"... Can someone help me ?

Thank you in advance.

I personally believe Chinese people, particularly ones living in China, are often very stereotypical and judgemental, when it comes to foreigners. The reason for this is, because they are exposed to virtually no foreigners are a regular day-to-day basis. For most people, even the students -nowadays, who are privelaged enough to have foreign English teachers- the foundation of their knowledge on foreigners is bulit through what they see and hear from foreign entertainment and media material.

The number of Caucasians entering and living in China is increasing steadily, but the sight of a Black person walking on a Chinese street -even that belonging to a large citiy like Shanghai or Beijing- has always been an extreme rarity. To be totally honest, the feeling I have is that Black people are less interested in travelling to China, than -say- Caucasians, for reasons, which I don't know for sure.

So, naturally, the Chinese will show an interest in you, but I'm very confident that in almost all cases, it is a genuine curiousity that is lead upon by the simple rarity of coming across such an occasion -if I may put it that way . Lastly, this may sound comical and even slightly stereotypical on my behalf -which I'm not intending to be- but if you happened to be above 6'0, and athletically built, chances are that the Chinese will have it in their minds that the've caught sight of an NBA basketball player. Or, at the least, if you acted as though you were a famous athlete/entertainer, by dressing flashy, and acted in a certain behaviour, then they would be convinced it is true, easier than you may think.

[delaSOuL]

And what does a Chinese person mean by race? Do they mean just Chinese? In the US, Chinese, Filipinos, and Indians are all considered the same race, but many Chinese think Filipinos and Indians are primitive brown monkeys - do they count? What about a 4th generation American of pure Chinese descent from Hawai'i who spoke no Chinese and had no interest in Chinese culture? What about a person who LOOKED completely white, black, Indian, etc. but is actually half-Chinese and can speak the language? Coming from a mixed family myself, I know plenty of people who fall into both categories. And I bet you have met such people too but dismissed them as "just" white or Chinese or whatever.

For me, 'Race' is genetic. Culture, self-identity, or what-not should have no influence on 'race'. Your 'race' is your genetic ancestory. In your example involving the 4th generation Chinese, living in America, who have no attachment to the Chinese culture, they are still Chinese by blood and 'race'. They may claim American nationality and identity, but their 'race' remains Chinese, and even if they continue to mix for generations with Caucasians, there will always remain a trace of Chinese in that bloodline. In your example involving the half-Chinese -supposing that 1 parent was fully Chinese- who 'looked' white/black/indian/whichever, I firstly counter with 'if it is the case that one parent is full Chinese -hence half- it is naturally impossible for the child to look 'completely' of the other race, with the absence of plastic surgery. But the answer stands that that child's race is as you put it, 'half-Chinese, half-white/black/indian/whichever'. This leads to the final point that -yes- a person's race can be 'mixed'.

[boris.yeltsin]

I firstly counter with 'if it is the case that one parent is full Chinese -hence half- it is naturally impossible for the child to look 'completely' of the other race, with the absence of plastic surgery.

Whoa! You obviously didn't study biology in school. I have cousins who are half-Chinese/half-Haitian, half-Chinese/half-Indian, half-Chinese/half-Cuban, and most do not look Chinese at all. I don't know what it is, but the Chinese phenotype for some reason gets watered down pretty quickly.

There seems to be very little concept of ethnicities beyond white, black, and Chinese (and maybe Indian/South Asian) in China. Each "box" has a set of expectations regarding language, nationality, etc. If you have one parent who is full Chinese, it is impossible to not look at least a little bit Chinese (like you said), and it is impossible to be a true native English speaker. If you are white or black, it is impossible to be fluent in Chinese. If you are American, you must be white. To not be in one of these "boxes" confuses a lot of Chinese. And as many people said, the Chinese are very curious and will ask questions to no end about where your parents and grandparents are from, where you were born, basically trying to figure out which "box" to put you in, even if you really just don't fit in any at all.

Of course the racial "box" syndrome happens everywhere, but I lived in a lot of different places and I feel it was by far the strongest in China. I can't say that China's racial isolation is the sole reason - after all I used to live in some extremely lily white rural areas in the US and while I definitely got my share of "You speak English really well!" I was not constantly prodded about my ancestral history. In general people just didn't care about it as much, and the fact that I was a New Yorker piqued more interest than where my parents were from.

[delaSOuL]

Whoa! You obviously didn't study biology in school. I have cousins who are half-Chinese/half-Haitian, half-Chinese/half-Indian, half-Chinese/half-Cuban, and most do not look Chinese at all. I don't know what it is, but the Chinese phenotype for some reason gets watered down pretty quickly.

If anything, you claiming untruth in my statement shows how much you know about biology. I consider my fundamental biological knowledge to be solid, which it need be to allow me to study Medicine. You basis is that the Chinese phenotype becomes 'watered down'... that is a great scientific explanation, really! No matter how you see it, it is a very delicate issue, how are you to judge what is a Chinese 'look'? Of course, to many Westerners, it is the eyes that distinguishes us most, but there are many more subtle features But, as far as hereditary goes, if one parent is full Chinese, and the other is of another race, then the offspring carries forth half the number of chromosomes from each parent, which means that half of the genetic makeup is 'Chinese' -so to speak. And the influence of genotype on phenotype is great -as you should know, if you studied biology- greater than that of the environment. So, again, technically, it is impossible for the Child to look completely of the other race. You may look at your cousins and think they don't look Chinese, but I'm pretty sure another person may have a different view. My point is that, there is going to be that at least certain characteristics; bone structure, skin tone, facial features, hair colour/hair texture, whatever it is -there are many aspects that make up a person's 'look'- that is going to belong to that of the Father. Your view on your cousins is subjective, I find it extremely narrow-minded naive, of you, to claim something so bold, based solely on your own personal views. Put more thought into your words, before spilling it out.

My post may sound patronizing, but it seems that is your style of communication. I find it extremely rude for you to come to a conclusion that someone is 'obviously' uneducated in a certain field, which I know I definitely am in. Furthermore, basing it on a single statement made -that in fact is no lie- whilst ending up showing your own lack of learning and your narrow-mindedness.

[xichg]

Whoa! You obviously didn't study biology in school. I have cousins who are half-Chinese/half-Haitian, half-Chinese/half-Indian, half-Chinese/half-Cuban, and most do not look Chinese at all. I don't know what it is, but the Chinese phenotype for some reason gets watered down pretty quickly.

You know that's exactly one of the reasons why I am against Chinese marrying outside race. As I stated before, I want my children to be like me. And actually it's the instinct in the animal world too. That's why you don't see a dog mixing with a cat. They want their offsprings remain dog or cat instead of a half dog/half cat. Marrying outside race/species is against nature's design.

Anyway, this is my belief and my personal choice. If you insisit it be racism too, so be it, I just don't care.

[johnd]

A dog and a cat are different species. That has nothing to do with race. We are all one species, that is the reason that we can procreate together. Every baby we create is beautiful, and deserves as much love and respect as the next. Your post makes me sick and I wish you would disappear back to the hole you came out of.

[adrianlondon]

If you insisit it be racism too, so be it, I just don't care.

Why post?

[delaSOuL]

As johnd says, a cat and dog belong to two different species, which means they can not interbreed to produce healthy offspring. Humans have invented the word 'race', which -in fact- is our word for 'variation' within our own population. For example, in cats, variation or 'race' would be seen through different breeds (e.g. kashmir, persian, etc.).

[delaSOuL]

You know that's exactly one of the reasons why I am against Chinese marrying outside race. As I stated before, I want my children to be like me. And actually it's the instinct in the animal world too. That's why you don't see a dog mixing with a cat. They want their offsprings remain dog or cat instead of a half dog/half cat. Marrying outside race/species is against nature's design.

Your reasoning is flawed... I highly doubt animals choose their mate, because they consciously want to preserve their bloodline. They breed with within their own species, because they can not physically mate with any other, going back to my last comment. Your argument is more concerned with, for example, a labrador dog mating with a beagle dog, which is entrely possible, since both are members of the same canine species. The key is that you confuse race with species, where indeed, it should actually be race/interspecific variation.

On that note, I have nothing against marrying outside your race. Afterall, we are all humans, neither nature nor religion speaks against such a thing. In fact, marrying and potentially conceiving a mix-raced child, increases variation, creating a stronger gene pool, which, in nature, theoretically leads to a more stable and stronger population. An individual's uniquness is not found through his/her race, but in his/her personality and character, it is that, which makes them human and an individual... and it is that, which a marriage should be built upon, not race.

[xichg]

Since when perserving one's gene and producing children like them has been a belief people can't hold and publicly admit? I want my children to be like me and I don't want my children confused in his/her idendity. I want my children can clearly say, 'yes, i belong to this group.' I am wondering how many half-breeds there can say the same thing. And the absolute majority of the world still prefer to marry within their own race. They are just not as vocal as the inter-breeds who have to be loud to cover their (their children's) insecurities due to their (their children's) lack of clear-cut identities.

I don't force my belief on you, but don't force your inter-breeding multiculturism crap on me either. And Johnd from Shenzhen, you disgust me.

[delaSOuL]

I never tried to impose anything on you; I just commented in response to what you wrote... I disagree with them, but you can have your views.

[Jamoldo]

xichg, please tell me that you dp not live in a western country where your children speak that country's language fluently and with little or no accent. If that is the case then they might already get confused about their identity since they will look different from everyone else, and have different traditions and homes, but go to the same school and speak the same language as everyone else, amongst other things. If they are in America, forget it, the country is all about being in a melting pot and they are told by their classmates, teachers and general society that they are American (though its distinctly different in Europe with a good bit more segregation, but that's another story) If that's the case then your kids just may well end up dating and marrying outside of the "Chinese Race."

Being of Indian origin, I have plenty of relatives and family friends who think along lines somewhat similar to you. There have been some pretty messy marriages (the couples did fine, but the families didn't take to it so well)... Also, do you just limit it to China as a whole or go further to limit it to region (ie your kids can only marry a Fujianese, Cantonese or a Hokkien speaker etc)? I ask this because many of my relatives will only really accept their children to marry within their language (and therefore region) group.

[Guest realmayo]

xichg do trolls never interbreed?

[Qcash3]

but if you happened to be above 6'0, and athletically built, chances are that the Chinese will have it in their minds that the've caught sight of an NBA basketball player.

Lol, I am 5'11 and at the time of my last visit to Beijing I had cornrows, I was asked if I was Allen Iverson at least 20 times . I was even challenged to several games of basketball.

I want my children can clearly say, 'yes, i belong to this group.' I am wondering how many half-breeds there can say the same thing.

Does "this group" refer to racists? If you didn't say that you were Chinese I would have sworn you were part of the Klan. You refer to people as if they were animals and your primary concern is for their breeding, if that is the case I pity you. Being just out of high school, and never married I can't really speak to the virtues of marriage, but I can comment on what I have witnessed. It seems to me that marriage is supposed to be something between two people who love each other regardless of their race, and is not supposed to be taken lightly. I can't imagine that someone who would stop being friends with someone else just because they married outside of their race, would have any idea of the concept of love. By no means am I trying to force anything on you, I consider it a waste of valuable time and energy to argue with racists, but I am merely saying that your views are highly flawed and make you no better than the Nazi's or the Klan or any racial supremacy group.