Racism

[johnd]

If I disgust you xichg, I apologise. I hope your pure bread children, possibly after they've had English lessons from their white teacher, might be more tolerant than you.

[delaSOuL]

Lol, I am 5'11 and at the time of my last visit to Beijing I had cornrows, I was asked if I was Allen Iverson at least 20 times . I was even challenged to several games of basketball.

Haha, reminds me of the scene in Rush Hour II, when Chris Tucker runs down the stairs, and an elderly Chinese woman says 'Move, KOBE'!

If you're in China during the Chinese New Years, be cool if we could meet up and play some pick-up games

[carlo]

as far as hereditary goes, if one parent is full Chinese, and the other is of another race, then the offspring carries forth half the number of chromosomes from each parent, which means that half of the genetic makeup is 'Chinese' -so to speak. And the influence of genotype on phenotype is great -as you should know, if you studied biology- greater than that of the environment. So, again, technically, it is impossible for the Child to look completely of the other race.

This is misleading. Assuming the two populations are completely isolated (which wouldn't be the case even if you married an African pygmy), you could say that half of the genetic make-up is from "China". Still you wouldn't know what effect individual genes have on phenotype: you may be unlucky and get an Irish nose and a Chinese esophagus. Moreover, there is no such thing as the Chinese phenotype, only individual phenotypes that are socially acceptable as "Chinese", and these vary more or less continuously with geographical distance. After a few generations of exogamy, thanks to sampling effect etc, much of the original 'Chinese' genetic inheritance may well be lost.

[gato]

you may be unlucky and get an Irish nose and a Chinese esophagus

No comment about the Irish nose, but is there something wrong with Chinese esophagi?

[md1101]

hmm ive avoided this thread for a while but being particularly bored today ive read some of it.

its good to see nearly everyone is really open minded and not in the least bit racist. which i guess would be expected in a chinese language forum where foriengers want to learn chinese.

xichg - although it exists all over the world to some degree i think it is particularly a chinese thing (i know.. not very pc but let me get away with it just once - and i know mostly due to lack of exposure) to think that you are either

1) american (covers all white people),

2) chinese (covers all asians),

3) black.

MAYBE this is why you think ethnic 'purity' so to speak is so important. Wouldn't want to have to burden yourself with thinking outside of those 3 categories. Much easier to just hate all people who mix with other races... you must really hate people from XinJiang province...

Well in this age of Globalisation things are changing so you'll find yourself as one angry bigot a couple of decades down the line. i do wonder what has made you think this way. to say you'd prefer to marry another asian person is one thing but to say you dislike ppl who go off and marry or go out with ppl of backgrounds other than their own.. thats what shows you've got some serious issues on the inside.

[Hero Doug]

Since when perserving one's gene and producing children like them has been a belief people can't hold and publicly admit? I want my children to be like me and I don't want my children confused in his/her idendity.

This belief has been near quite dead for a long time (In my part of Canada) and is slowly dying in China. Just because it's an old belief doesn't mean it's a good belief.

It's attitudes like this that cause trouble, in the family, and socially.

For instance, I know one girl who is quite possibly never going to speak to her father again because she has decided that her foreign boyfriend is a good man and doesn't want to leave him.

I know another man who is in fear of losing his job because his daughter is dating a foreigner. His boss think's a lot like you.

Is "keeping your gene pool pure" really a good attitude?

I've provided a couple reasons why I don't like this line of thinking, why don't you provide a few reasons why you do like this line of thinking. I'd love to hear why you have to say.

[boris.yeltsin]

If anything, you claiming untruth in my statement shows how much you know about biology. I consider my fundamental biological knowledge to be solid, which it need be to allow me to study Medicine.

Dude, get over yourself! Let's see, 18 year old on gap year versus 28 year old incoming MPH student who already has an ScB in Biology...erm...

You basis is that the Chinese phenotype becomes 'watered down'... that is a great scientific explanation, really!

No, it's not, I was using the term extremely semantically - this is, after all, a message board on China, not an international JAMA conference.

how are you to judge what is a Chinese 'look'?

You yourself claimed it was impossible to not "look" Chinese if one was genetically half Chinese, so you tell me what the answer is.

You may look at your cousins and think they don't look Chinese, but I'm pretty sure another person may have a different view.

No, I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't. You'll just have to trust me on this one, as I grew up in a mixed family and you evidently didn't. Now *I* personally can tell, with the exception of maybe one, that they're mixed, but the vast majority of people outside of my family cannot. I was referring to that, because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what people like me think - it matters what their employers, teachers, doctors, neighbours, etc. think, because they will be treated the way they look. (Note to the Chinese Klan Guy - this is not necessarily a bad thing).

I was merely refuting your flawed statement that if you are half Chinese it is impossible to "look" at least a tiny bit Chinese. Your new post seems to indicate that you really meant it is impossible to not have some physical features of both parents, which is a different story. Sure, a kid could inherit his Chinese mother's hair color, but if both parents have black hair (let's say the other is Italian), would you point at him and say "See I told you - he looks a little Chinese because he has black hair!"?

Of course as a student of biology you would also know about recessive vs. dominant alleles, and that it is technically possible to have a large number of recessive alleles that get carried on but not physically expressed by offspring. And for medical school you definitely need to know that high school genetics class is often bunk in real life - like this whole business of blue eyes always being recessive. Go tell that to my blue-eyed Chinese-Scottish cousin, whose parents are both brown-eyed.

[boris.yeltsin]

No one quite answered my question as to what Chinese people mean when they say they want to marry their own "race", and whether someone like me fell in that category. Certainly there are tons of overseas Chinese marrying Indonesians and Filipinos, is that considered the same "race"? Probably not by a Chinese person, but in the US it's the same. Is Korean close enough? I think most Chinese I meet might be ok with a Korean.

As for that KKK "half-breed" comment - again, are you going by only the Chinese yardstick? Because I am not considered much of a half-breed in the US but probably so in China, with the one catch that I "look" entirely Chinese, whatever that means. What would you do if you married someone like that thinking they were 100% Chinese and found out later they were only 50%? Would you disown your children?

[gato]

my question as to what Chinese people mean when they say they want to marry their own "race"

Most Chinese don't have a clear understanding of race. They would say “黄种人” (yellow-skinned people)， “白种人/白人” (white-skinned people)， “黑人” (black people)， “东南亚人” (Southeast Asians)，“印度人” (Asian Indians)，“阿拉伯人” (Arabs), etc. Some of these defined by skin color, some by region, and some by culture. It's confused conceptually. Most Chinese don't think about the differences between race and ethnicity. But that's how many laypeople view in the West, too. It's only fairly recently that the concept of "race" has been debunked or rather clarified and more systematically studied in the West. Today, at least in the US, many institutions have replaced the word "race" with "ethnicity". The Chinese are probably still about 100 years behind in this regard.

As for that KKK "half-breed" comment - again, are you going by only the Chinese yardstick? Because I am not considered much of a half-breed in the US but probably so in China, with the one catch that I "look" entirely Chinese, whatever that means.

If you're not culturally Chinese, particularly if you don't speak Chinese, they might say "you look Chinese but aren't really Chinese." But they probably won't have any objections to their kids or friends marrying you.

[carlo]

is there something wrong with Chinese esophagi?

Hehe of course not, Sichuanese esophagi in particular have undergone pretty intense natural selection, but the fact remains that our perceptions are biased. A tolerance for 臭豆腐 may be as much a sign of Chinese descent as the epicanthic fold.

[delaSOuL]

Dude, get over yourself! Let's see, 18 year old on gap year versus 28 year old incoming MPH student who already has an ScB in Biology...erm...

Firstly, I stated that just to point out that I do have a background in Biology. Secondly, a gap year is meant to be a blemish on me?

No, it's not, I was using the term extremely semantically - this is, after all, a message board on China, not an international JAMA conference.

But, when you accuse someone of not knowing anything about the subject, and carry on to saying something like this in such a fashion, you make yourself vulnerable to such an accusation.

You yourself claimed it was impossible to not "look" Chinese if one was genetically half Chinese, so you tell me what the answer is.

I did say 'theoretically' it was impossible, based on your genetics. On the surface of it, the specific anatomy unique to Chinese people is very hard to distinguish through simply looking at someone, unless -for some odd reason- you've studied it (e.g. Nazi scientists and Jews), and yet still by just looking (e.g. at your cousins) you can not surely say that they have no Chinese characteristics. Therefore, it is impossible for the majority of us to simply look at someone and say 'he/she doesn't look...', or else that they don't have any characteristics of being e.g. Chinese.

I was merely refuting your flawed statement that if you are half Chinese it is impossible to "look" at least a tiny bit Chinese. Your new post seems to indicate that you really meant it is impossible to not have some physical features of both parents, which is a different story. Sure, a kid could inherit his Chinese mother's hair color, but if both parents have black hair (let's say the other is Italian), would you point at him and say "See I told you - he looks a little Chinese because he has black hair!"?

I'll take your own example of the Chinese-Italian kid, with black hair to support my previous statement of the subtleties of physical racial traits. For you, on the surface, this kid simply has black hair, which means it can be inherited from either parent. However, I know for a fact that Chinese hair, or East Asian hair for that matter, is specific not only in its colour, but also in its texture, as well as its posiiton on the scalp. So, for a person, who is experienced in such a thing, he/she can make a fair conclusion over, whether the hair has been inherited from the mother or father, based on texture and pattern of growth.

Of course as a student of biology you would also know about recessive vs. dominant alleles, and that it is technically possible to have a large number of recessive alleles that get carried on but not physically expressed by offspring. And for medical school you definitely need to know that high school genetics class is often bunk in real life - like this whole business of blue eyes always being recessive. Go tell that to my blue-eyed Chinese-Scottish cousin, whose parents are both brown-eyed.[/

Of course it is technically possible, but over the thousands and thousands of genes that can determine phenotypical characteristics, the chances of such an occurence is so low, its almost overlookable. Furthermore, not all of those recessive genes belong to the Chinese genepool, meaning there are going to be at least some dominant Chinese alleles. Well clearly both of the parents of your friend were carriers of the recessive blue eye allele. Don't ask me why the Chinese parent has the gene, but if its the situation as you tell it, it must be true.

[Qcash3]

If you're in China during the Chinese New Years, be cool if we could meet up and play some pick-up games.

Yeah dude I'll be around. I will be in Beijing all year.

[imron]

So, for a person, who is experienced in such a thing, he/she can make a fair conclusion over, whether the hair has been inherited from the mother or father, based on texture and pattern of growth.

The point I think boris.yeltsin is trying to make is that most people aren't experienced in these things. Hair, eye and skin colour are going to be the biggies for any person without a background in biology and genetics (i.e 99% of the world's population). Texture and placement of hair and other finer distinguishing points probably aren't going to be noticed by your average joe.

Anyway, I can understand what boris.yeltsin is getting at because I know a happily married couple (husband Australian, wife Chinese) whose children (all in their twenties) don't really look Chinese at all. Sure, if someone tells you that their mother is Chinese, you'd look at them at say "oh yeah, I can possibly see that", but otherwise you'd just assume they were dark-haired caucasians. Add to this the fact that the children all have an English firstname and surname, and the thought of them being half-Chinese wouldn't even cross your mind. In fact if the husband were to introduce his wife and then his children to you, your first thought would probably be to think they were children from a previous marriage.

[delaSOuL]

imron that has been my point all along; it is is impossible for the 'average joe' to determine whether someone looks Chinese or not, but that doesn't mean they don't have Chinese traits.

[xichg]

For some people who call me Klan, I guess you have no idea what a real Klan is capable of.

And don't be so fast to congratulate yourselves for being 'open-minded' because you are not. Calling people names (racist, Klan, bigot) because they hold their opinions really undercut your claim of being 'open-minded'.

All I believe is people should marry within their race. I have no problem with any single race. I don't discriminate against any race here. And as I said before, I have friends from different backgrounds, and I like them a lot. I just don't think it's a good idea for different races to inter-breed.

And as I said before, the abosulte majority of the world prefer to marry inside their own races. They are just not as vocal as you are. I don't agree that this line of thinking has died in Canada or US or the whole west. It's just not a PC thing for a white family to publicly say that I want (I want my children) to marry a white girl/boy. Same thing goes to other races. Although every year the media produce so tons of liberal view propaganda products every year trying to change people's mind and urging (implicitly) to interbreed, I believe the majority still want to have offsprings like them. I know you people are the majority here, but you are not the majority in your thinking in the real world.

And to answer someone before, no, I don't hate Xinjiang people. I know none of them. I am against race mixing. I don't hate people because of their race or the views they hold.

[Qcash3]

For some people who call me Klan, I guess you have no idea what a real Klan is capable of.

If you only knew.....

And don't be so fast to congratulate yourselves for being 'open-minded' because you are not. Calling people names (racist, Klan, bigot) because they hold their opinions really undercut your claim of being 'open-minded'.

Calling a chicken an idiot because he's of the opinion that he's a turkey, makes me less open minded?

I just don't think it's a good idea for different races to inter-breed. I am against race mixing.

There goes that breeding word again . Remember when I said I don't argue with racists, this is why. Here is a group of people who hold many of the same twisted views as you, and they too hide under the cloak of Nationalism. I spent too much time arguing with them so i'm too tired to do it with you. Post what you think on their forum and see what they say to you, oh and be sure to mention that you are Chinese (sh).

[Qcash3]

And as I said before, the abosulte majority of the world prefer to marry inside their own races.

Ahh, but here's the kicker. Does the absolute majority of the world disown their friends because they marry outside the race? If they do, then that makes the absolute majority of the world as close minded as you. I'm going to live on Mars.

[gato]

All I believe is people should marry within their race. I have no problem with any single race. I don't discriminate against any race here. And as I said before, I have friends from different backgrounds, and I like them a lot. I just don't think it's a good idea for different races to inter-breed.

I'm just the opposite. I think it's a good idea for there to be as much interbreeding as possible. In addition to the benefit of "hybrid vigor" alluded to earlier, I think it's also the best to eliminate racism. Warren Beatty said something to the same effect but a little more graphically in Bulworth. However, I do think it's hasty to call xichg a racist. Comparing him to a Nazi or a Klansman is surely overreaching for he isn't asserting the superiority of any one race but simply that races/ethnicities should stick to their own for child-bearing purposes. If only that were the only thing that the Nazis and Klan cared about... Also what he states is true. Many supposedly liberal people in the West also believe what he believes, but they usually explain it by saying "oh, I'm just not attracted to people of other race." At least he's not a hypocrite. What he choose to do with his private life is really not much of our business.

[Qcash3]

Comparing him to a Nazi or a Klansman is surely overreaching for he isn't asserting the superiority of any one race but simply that races/ethnicities to should stick to their own for child-bearing purposes.

I couldn't resist.

"And marriage cannot be an end in itself, but must serve the one higher goal,the increase and preservation of the species and the race. This alone is its meaning and its task" -AH, Mein Kampf

[xichg]

Gato,

Let's say you are right that inter-breeding do bring benefits like 'hybrid vigor' and people should be encouraged to reproduce with people outside their races. Let's say this process goes on and on for a long time and one day in the future people wake up and find that every face looks so similar. According to your theory racism will be gone since people are of the same mixed race now. But this won't happen since people will find other differences to discriminate against each other. So this is not the best way to eliminate racism.

But the worse consequence is that the diversity is gone forever. Wouldn't it be boring that everybody on the face of the earth look alike and is of the same race? Wouldn't it be a little bit more exciting to have people to have different skin colors? It's for the same reason I have rejected to be converted to Christinaity. I know some Christian missinaries and even befriend with some of them. They are super nice people but I don't like what they are doing. They are trying to make everyone to have the same religion. I believe that by embracing a new religion you have to abandon some of your own culture. That's why every time I just plainly told them 'no'. In a sense they are killing different cultures and are making people all the same. The world would be very boring when the day came everybody is a Christian. How about I am a Chinese with my Chinese culture, you are a Christian with your belief system, and he is ..... We can still be friends but we remain different and retain each one's uniqueness.

I don't think Chinese is superior to other races or cultures in any way. But it's my culture and it's what defines me and generations before me. And I want this culture to continue with my future children. Of course I am a 'racist' to many since I love my culture and I don't want my culture lost on my children forever and my children lose their Chinese identity forever.