furiously Posted November 23, 2010 at 02:41 PM Report Share Posted November 23, 2010 at 02:41 PM I've used a number of online generators but as it is a permanent piece of artwork, I thought it'd be best to involve the help of someone more knowledgeable on the language to accurately translate a phrase. English phrase: It is more shameful to distrust our friends than to be deceived by them Babelfish translation (http://au.babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt): 它是更加恥辱的懷疑我們的朋友比將由他們欺騙 If it is possible, and I'd greatly appreciate it if someone could help re translate the phrase, and perhaps make it shorter whilst still maintaining a degree of meaning. Kind regards, hope someone can help me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mushroom Posted November 25, 2010 at 06:19 AM Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 at 06:19 AM 寧人負我，無我負人 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiously Posted November 25, 2010 at 07:09 AM Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 at 07:09 AM Thanks for the response mushroom, really is it that short compared to the online automatic translation? Also may I ask if this is Chinese traditional? Kind regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renzhe Posted November 25, 2010 at 10:47 AM Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 at 10:47 AM Whatever you do, don't tattoo that babelfish nonsense on you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiously Posted November 25, 2010 at 11:44 AM Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 at 11:44 AM Yeah that's definitely why I came here looking for some help. Anyway I entered your translation into babelfish 'mushroom' and instead of friend it was 'person'. So I'm not sure, oh and for aesthetics is there a way the phrase could be made longer in chinese, as it looks abit short and I plan to get it on my spine. Kind regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renzhe Posted November 25, 2010 at 12:59 PM Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 at 12:59 PM The phrase mushroom gave you is actually a real idiom from Records of the Three Kingdoms, see http://dict.idioms.moe.edu.tw/mandarin/fulu/dict/cyd/40/cyd40733.htm, http://baike.baidu.com/view/952704.htm . It carries a noble and heroic connotation. And yes, it is "person" rather than "friend". The meaning is roughly "I'd rather be wronged by others, than wrong others myself". Mushroom's version is written using traditional characters, the simplified version is 宁人负我,无我负人. In my opinion, it is better to get a real Chinese idiom which has history and meaning, than to tattoo an approximate translation of an English phrase. Also keep in mind that Chinese idioms tend to be short and to the point, usually only four characters in length. This one is already quite long. EDIT: I mixed up two different sayings, so I edited this post to avoid confusing any people. See mushroom's post below. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daofeishi Posted November 25, 2010 at 02:05 PM Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 at 02:05 PM Anyway I entered your translation into babelfish 'mushroom' and instead of friend it was 'person'. Never, ever judge the phrasing and aesthetics of another language using your own. Languages don't work that way. If the English wording is important to you, have the phrase tattooed on you in English. Otherwise you should go with what sounds good in the target language. Have a look at the picture I've attached. That is what happens when you stubbornly insist on keeping the wording of your own language and disregard what it might sound like in translation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mushroom Posted November 25, 2010 at 04:09 PM Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 at 04:09 PM Be careful!!! The opposite direction!!! 「寧人負我，無我負人。」 said by 羅仇, who is uncle of 沮渠蒙遜 (Juqu Mengxun) 「寧我負人，毋人負我。」 said by 曹操 (Cao Cao) Finally, 羅仇 was killed by someone he trusted. 曹操 killed someone who trusted him. Both idioms are from Records of History. If you want a definite translation from above English phrase, you can try: 「負友恥於友負。」 or 「懷疑朋友比被朋友欺騙更可恥。」 translated by 香菇 (mushroom) (but I think idiom from history book is more aesthetic.) ==== The chinese which I and FURIOUSLY keyin is in traditional, RENZHE's is in simplify. you can easily covert chinese by Firefox+新同文堂. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renzhe Posted November 25, 2010 at 05:34 PM Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 at 05:34 PM Wow, I totally missed the fact that these are two different idioms! That's what I get for copy and paste! Nice catch, mushroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiously Posted November 25, 2010 at 09:11 PM Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 at 09:11 PM Hey guys thanks for the responses and advice, I am looking for a traditional form yes. Actually the phrase I want translated is from Confucius himself, however I could not find the phrase in its original Chinese form. If you guys believe that it still retains it's true meaning then I guess that's okay. However the 'friend' part is kind of important, instead of distrusting just any person, if you know what I mean? How about 'brother' or something with a more intimate relationship than just person. I don't wish to be stubborn about the 'aesthetics' but just throwing some suggestions and possibilities. As I am really uninformed, and its quite important that I get the write characters hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted November 26, 2010 at 12:57 AM Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 at 12:57 AM Actually the phrase I want translated is from Confucius himself,Are you sure? Many things attributed as sayings of Confucius actually aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanglu Posted November 26, 2010 at 02:24 AM Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 at 02:24 AM There are lots of references in google to this quote being from Confucius, but, tellingly, none provide a source. I had a quick look through the Analects (论语) and couldn't see anything like it. On the other hand, I can find a specific reference to it being published by François de La Rochefoucauld, a French 'author of maxims' in the 17th century. It was maxim number 84 in his book 'Reflections; or Sentences and Moral Maxims' (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_de_La_Rochefoucauld and google books). Maybe you'd be better off getting a tattoo of "Il est plus honteux de se défier de ses amis que d'en être trompé." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiously Posted November 26, 2010 at 04:30 AM Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 at 04:30 AM Oh well either way I do like the phrase, I live by it and it reflects my character entirely. I'd prefer it in chinese though fanglu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daofeishi Posted November 26, 2010 at 10:54 AM Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 at 10:54 AM If you are sure you want it in Chinese, make sure you choose a tattoo artist who has actually studied Chinese calligraphy. If not, the result will be bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiously Posted November 26, 2010 at 01:01 PM Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 at 01:01 PM Yep definitely get the reason for that. So would everyone/mushroom agree with 寧人負我，無我負人 ? Is it possible to make it somehow longer? and instead of person have something or more intimate relation? Like brother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymoose Posted November 26, 2010 at 01:35 PM Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 at 01:35 PM Is it possible to make it somehow longer? and instead of person have something or more intimate relation? Like brother? This is a fixed phrase. Of course, extending or otherwise changing it is technically possible, but then you completely destroy its deeper historical and linguistic value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiously Posted November 26, 2010 at 02:19 PM Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 at 02:19 PM Ah could you give me a sample please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymoose Posted November 26, 2010 at 02:50 PM Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 at 02:50 PM I'll leave it for someone with better Chinese than myself to change it. As I say, changing the phrase is likely to destroy its elegance. If I do anything, it'll probably butcher the phrase completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creamyhorror Posted November 26, 2010 at 07:29 PM Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 at 07:29 PM You can substitute 'friend' for 'person' if you want: 寧友負我，無我負友 It retains the same form as the original and would clearly appear to be a derivative to any Chinese reader. I don't know about destroying "deeper historical and linguistic value" - it's a personal tattoo, not a philosophical or linguistic work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymoose Posted November 27, 2010 at 03:46 AM Report Share Posted November 27, 2010 at 03:46 AM I don't know about destroying "deeper historical and linguistic value" - it's a personal tattoo, not a philosophical or linguistic work. So why not just use the Babelfish version then? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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