What makes a good foundation for fluency?

[sheridan]

Hello all.

With apologies for asking what must be a well-worn question, but I'm looking for guidance through the sea of resources now available to learn Mandarin through software/online resources to build a solid foundation for fluency (reading, writing [emphasis on traditional], and speaking.) I am not travelling to Taiwan or China for business, pleasure, or what have you, but rather I would like to ultimately become fluent in Mandarin to further my own focus in Buddhist studies. That being said, I am not associated with any institute for higher education in the U.S. Rather, I am a monastic.

For some context, I am an American with a basic introduction to Mandarin. I am living with four Mandarin and Cantonese-speakers at a Buddhist monastery in the mid-west, and have ample opportunity for conversational practice. I also will be beginning to see a private tutor in the coming month or so for something like twice a week. Additionally, I will most likely have the opportunity to travel to Taiwan within the next year to both immerse myself, as well as benefit from classroom time.

So, I am quite fortunate to be in a good position with resources and opportunities.

I am hoping that wise and experienced people in this forum can help point me in the direction of what, if any, software and/or online resources I might be useful for individual study to help take the most advantage of my situation and interests (i.e. what could supplement and compliment daily access to conversational Chinese and provide a solid beginning for more advance study in Taiwan). I have looked at all the usual suspects (Chinesepod [and its close cousin Chineseclass101.com], Rosetta Stone, Fluenz, etc.), and, to be honest, I'm not overwhelmed with interest in any one of them; unless, that is, I'm missing something.

I have picked up a number of Apple Chinese apps with my iPod Touch which are quite helpful (Pleco being my cornerstone), but I'm hoping for something quite comprehensive for the laptop. So far, I have yet to come across software that contains instruction on speaking, reading (characters and pinyin), and writing; but, again, I am not well-acquainted with all that is offered out there.

Thank you for reading and considering this request; again, I apologize for any redundancy in it. I have looked through past postings, but have left unsatisfied.

I hope this finds everyone quite well.

祝你 安安樂樂

--Sheridan

[renzhe]

Chinese (Mandarin and all others) is a language which really profits from lots of exposure. People like you (and me), who do not live in a Chinese-speaking country face a problem when trying to pass the intermediate stage.

You don't say how good your Mandarin is. Your first step should be to get familiar with the most important 2000 characters and 5000 or so vocabulary items. Look up SRS, Anki, Mnemosyne, nciku, mdbg, skritter and other free resources which were discussed in great detail on the forum. Don't ignore grammar, and a good textbook will help you there: NPCR, Integrated Chinese, DeFrancis Reader, or something similar.

The second step (but which you should start as soon as possible, because it will help with and complement the first one) is creating exposure to the language. You're on the right track when you look at podcasts, but honestly, just podcasts (or Rosetta Stone or whatnot) will not be enough. Look at books, comic books, movies and TV shows, and make sure you spend upward of an hour daily reading and listening. It will be painful in the beginning, but you need the volume.

Look in the relevant subforums: Television, Movies, Art & Literature; and the relevant projects: the First Episode Project, the Comic Project and the Book of the Month project for many recommendations and annotations.

Ultimately, the jump to fluency is achieved through a very solid foundation (step one) and lots of practice (step two).

[anonymoose]

Everyone has a different approach, but personally, for the sake of long-term benefit, I think the most important thing initially is to get a solid foundation in the grammar. The fact that you have ample opportunity to practice is good, but in most cases, provided your mandarin is understandable, people will not proactively point out your errors.

You didn't mention what stage you're at, but if you are only beginning, then my suggestion would be to firstly get a comprehensive grammar book (of the educational style, rather than reference, and preferably with exercises and accompanying answers), and work through it until you are familiar with the structure of the language.

Once you have that under your belt (and frankly, it shouldn't take very long), then you have the big task of vocabulary acquisition, which comes through experience more than anything else (although is aided by use of Anki and other tools as Renzhe mentioned).

[Daniw de Leon]

In a way I'm in a similar situation to you, having some Mandarin speakers available for conversation in my office despite being in a non-Chinese-speaking country, and with a basic foundation of Chinese. I have found some primer threads in this forum that are absolute treasure troves of resources and guidance. In particular, some posts in the General Advice section will surely point you on your way:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/20942-learning-chinese-%e2%80%93-advice-for-the-new-and-independent-student/

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/5007-some-advice-for-beginners

[Daan]

renzhe and anonymoose have, as always, provided excellent advice. Don't forget mastering the tones, either. It's exceedingly difficult to do something about your pronunciation once you've been studying for a while. Not paying attention to pronunciation in the beginning will come back to haunt you when you get to a more advanced level. I'm not saying you shouldn't work on vocabulary and grammar when you're just starting to learn Mandarin, but when you want to achieve fluency in spoken Mandarin, you'll need to have a good pronunciation, so don't overlook this crucial aspect of learning languages

[daofeishi]

Anonymoose is right about the grammar. Make sure to listen carefully to the wording native speakers choose. It might sound obvious, but really, tons of learners make the mistake that they use rules and structures that only apply to their own language when speaking a second language. If you internalize bad grammar, it will be really, really hard to change it later.

I have a friend (or acquaintance rather) who spent a year in China, studied Mandarin and now claims he is fully fluent. He somehow got a really good HSK score, and now thinks he is "above" having to do more in-depth study. Recently he twittered "下个夏天我计划会(sic)中国.我很很想我都的朋友在北京". What I think he was trying to say is: "Next summer I plan to go back to China. I really, really miss all my friends in Beijing". Anyone who actually understands Chinese grammar is probably rolling their eyes right now. It's analogous to someone writing "Next year summer I plan back China go, I really very miss my all in Beijing friends", which roughly is the way you should phrase it in Chinese.

That he does not think that there is something wrong with that Chinese phrase is really telling, but it's a very common problem. If you don't take care to absorb a lot of Chinese and do a lot of listening, actively figuring out what different grammatical patterns mean, you might end up in the same boat. What you'd be saying would be intelligible, but it's not the kind of language you would want to end up speaking.

[sheridan]

Thank you all for the sound advice, links to previous posts (very helpful), and practical suggestions. I appreciate the help. 

I'm not in a position to reply in great detail, and won't be for a few days, but I will answer the question about how far along I am in learning and speaking Mandarin. 

I would say that I am still just beginning. I believe I have a grasp of the basic structure and pronunciation (focusing on good and accurate tone reproduction), but I am still very much accumulating a very basic vocabulary. The advice to include a focus on grammar at this point seems very sound, and I will follow through with this as I begin a more structured, focused regime of study and practice. 

I will look into the examples of resources suggested over the next while, and will see what else comes up that is good to seek additional advice on. 

I will add here that this forum is very impressive; I'm grateful I stumbled across it recently. 

Thank you again, and I apologize for any brevity and impersonality in this reply; conditions don't allow for much more at the moment. 

--Sheridan