Prejudice

[skylee]

I was surprised by my own prejudice today.

I was reading an email (in Chinese) from a journalism masters student requesting an interview with some VIP. I thought aloud “how can the Chinese of a journalism masters student be so poor”. And then I scrolled down to read the whole chain of related messages. First I saw the Chinese name of the student. And then there was his romanised name, and it was in Hanyu Pinyin. And my first reaction was “no wonder”. I don’t know how to categorise such “no wonder” feelings. I call it prejudice. It was so strange, because Mainland students who come to study in Hong Kong seem to tend to be top students. And I would like to believe that the poor Chinese of this particular student is an exception. Yet when I see something below par which is from the Mainland I instantly and comfortably generalise it.

Any views on such prejudice?

[gato]

Mainland students who go to Hong Kong for undergraduate study are usually top students, but graduate students usually are not top students. For graduate studies, mainland students still have US as first preference and then UK.

But can you say a little about what you found to be poor in this student's writing? Was it the grammar, vocabulary, or phrasing? Or the content?

I generally find mainlander's writing to be poor in logical organiztion, as their training in writing is mostly focused on learning/memorizing set patterns, flowery language and form and little on logical analysis. They are often given model essays to memorize. You can see the difference in emphasis in essay section of standardized tests. While essay tests in the US and UK typically involve persuasive writing on an issue of public interest, mainland essay tests usually require the test-taker to give an emotional reaction to vague prompts. Examples of essay topics from mainland university entrance exams includes "I want to shake your hand" from Shanghai a couple of years ago, and "Beijing's Symbol" from Beijing's version of the exam a few years ago.

[889]

But is it a prejudice that runs both ways?

I've heard people -- usually from the Mainland -- say that HK people generally don't write Chinese very well, claiming that the dual-language approach produces graduates not fully proficient in either language.

I'm in no position to judge whether the claim's accurate or not, but I do believe there are Mainland Chinese who look down on the written Chinese of HK people.

[skylee]

I found the email incoherent, not well-organised. It seems that the writer just wrote what he thought. It is not in a proper form that one would expect of a request for interview, and certainly not from someone who is studying journalism.

[gato]

I'm in no position to judge whether the claim's accurate or not, but I do believe there are Mainland Chinese who look down on the written Chinese of HK people.

Skylee went to a Chinese school, right? I do think HKers who grew up being educated in English are not quite as proficient in Chinese. I personally find articles published in Chinese papers in HK to be quite good. I particularly like the columnists in the weekend supplement of Apple Daily (董桥, for example). The writings seems softer and more self-deprecating humor than mainland writing. It might be the British influence.

There is probably quite a divergence in Chinese proficiency among HKers, though the divergence is likely to be much less than that among ethnic Chinese in Singapore and Malaysia.

There are a whole industry of books published in HK for correcting "Euro-Americanism" and "Cantonese-ism" from the Chinese writing of HKers. I've bought a few myself as they seem to be helpful even to non-HKers.

I found the email incoherent, not well-organised. It seems that the writer just wrote what he thought.

That's probably due to lack of training in logical writing that I mentioned above.

[Jive Turkey]

I have to disagree with the generalization made above about mainland undergrads in HK being good, and mainland postgrads being not so good. If the undergrads got here throught he route of first doing a year at one of the select mainland universities, then yes, I agree that many of them are quite strong students. HK universities, especially the newer ones, are also taking a lot of mainland kids who are here because dad has money to put them through a local or mainland campus Hong Kong associates degree. Again, some of these kids are great, but some of them aren't so bright. Most of them still have that "immigrant" drive that comes from studying in a different system and place, though.

I find that the mainlanders doing PhDs here are a mixed bag. It really depends on the discipline. Some of them are definitely good enough to do a PhD at a mid-ranked US university, but have chosen HK because of supervisors, funding, being close to home, or data collection issues. I find that some of the sharpest postgrads here are the ones doing masters degrees. Many of them are using a HK masters as a stepping stone into some of the best western PhD programs in a range of disciplines.

I would agree that secondary school composition on the mainland tends to lead students toward an emotional style of writing. However, I'm not so sure about the "flowery" language thing. They actually get a lot less of the classical input than HK and Taiwan students. Perhaps it is just that when they do try to be literary, the result is more cliche?

I actually find academic writing by educated mainlanders to be rhetorically effective on the whole. HKers' ability to do the same in Chinese is somewhat rare since most people don't do any serious Chinese writing at the tertiary level.

The public exam results fail to show that Chinese medium school kids do better as a whole in written Chinese than EMI school kids. This is mostly due to the fact that the EMI schools manage to get the brightest kids. Even though they don't do as much in Chinese, the kids in those schools tend to be better at all subjects when seen as a group (nothing to do with being taught in English, though). Of course, if you were to compare kids from one of the more selective CMI schools like Pui Ching to even the better EMI schools, I have no doubt at all that the Pui Ching kids blow the St Paulers and DB/GS kids away.

[gato]

HK universities, especially the newer ones, are taking a lot of mainland kids who are here because dad has money to put them through a local or mainland campus Hong Kong associates degree.

I was talking about the ones at University of Hong Kong, Chinese University of Hong Kong, Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, Hong Kong Polytech, and City University of Hong Kong. Not sure about ones receiving associate degrees. I have no personal experience, though, just what I know from media reports.

Do HKers still have a preference to go to the UK or US for undergrad? I see among the older generation.

However, I'm not so sure about the "flowery" language thing.

I called it "purple prose" in another thread, but some people haven't heard of "purple prose" before.

The public exam results fail to show that Chinese medium school kids do better as a whole in written Chinese than EMI school kids. Of course, if you were to compare kids from one of the more selective CMI schools like Pui Ching to even the better EMI schools, I have no doubt at all that the Pui Ching kids blow the St Paulers and DB/GS kids away.

Do the International schools teach Chinese, just less hours? Are there still government-sponsored schools that teach mainly in English?

[skylee]

Of course, if you were to compare kids from one of the more selective CMI schools like Pui Ching to even the better EMI schools, I have no doubt at all that the Pui Ching kids blow the St Paulers and DB/GS kids away.

Pui Ching was my dream school.

[jbradfor]

Yet when I see something below par which is from the Mainland I instantly and comfortably generalise it.

I blame all the Hong Kong movies from the '80's.

While I'm certainly no expert on Hong Kong Cinema, in pretty much all the Hong Kong movies I've seen that were filmed in the '80's (and took place in contemporary Hong Kong, as opposed to "historical" movies), a common theme was to make fun of people from the mainland coming to Hong Kong. In this, the person from the mainland would act like a "country bumpkin", and not know how to behave in a "civilized" place like Hong Kong.

While I'm sure you don't believe this is (still) the case, I think growing up with this type of portrayal in the media does have a lasting effect that is hard to shake.

[889]

TV and movies in Hong Kong used to be utterly shameless when it came to ethnic caricatures.

In the '80s, the nightly variety show EYT often featured a Chinese actress dolled out in dark facial makeup and a fright wig playing "Maria," a not very bright Philippine maid who just couldn't understand anything her Hong Kong owners said, creating all sorts of confusion. The Hong Kong audience couldn't stop laughing whenever Maria was on stage, especially when she spoke broken Cantonese. Ha ha ha.

But then I've never appreciated Mainland TV's country bumpkin skits, either.

[Jive Turkey]

I think growing up with this type of portrayal in the media does have a lasting effect that is hard to shake.

The movies are now a bit more PC, but the droves of mainlanders at Ocean Park and Disney more than compensate for the reduced impact that mass media has on their reputation as bumpkins.

[Jive Turkey]

I was talking about the ones at University of Hong Kong, Chinese University of Hong Kong, Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, Hong Kong Polytech, and City University of Hong Kong. Not sure about ones receiving associate degrees.

Sorry, I wasn't clear about that. Their are currently two basic routes for mainlanders to get into a HK university. The first is to finish their six years of secondary school on the mainland, and then do a year at one of the better mainland universities. Hong Kong requires this since Hong Kong kids still do 7 years in secondary. The kids who go this route are generally bright. When HK switches to six years of secondary and four year degrees in 2012, the mainlanders can come straight in without having done the year at a mainland university.

The second route is to do an associates degree offered by one of HK's universities, typically on a mainland satellite campus. These kids are typically not sharp enough to get into one of the better universities on the mainland. HK universities like this route because it is a money spinner.

Do HKers still have a preference to go to the UK or US for undergrad? I see among the older generation.

Yes and no. The worship complex toward foreign degrees is less intense than in the past. I think some people have realized that kids who have paid full fees to go to an old UK poly or a US state university's non-flagship campus are not coming back any brighter or better at English than the ones who stayed in HK. I test (IELTS) a lot of the returnees from these sorts of universities, and they are rarely better at English than graduates form HKU or CUHK. They typically went overseas because their parents had more money than the child had sense, and thus couldn't get into a respectable degree program in HK. When they are overseas, they typically clique up with other HKers or Chinese, and the institutions where they study don't give them the kind of focused attention on language skills that they would have gotten in HK. Of course, the kids I test are not a scientiffic sample. The kids who go to the better overseas universities, or who manage to integrate and improve their English while at an average university, probably don't even return to HK.

Do the International schools teach Chinese, just less hours?

It varies a great deal. A small number of international schools (e.g., ISF, CIS, Yaozhong) teach at a level where the better students might finish with a level of literacy comparable to kids at a local EMI. Most of the international schools stream kids, and it is typically ethnic Chinese in the hard stream (the "native" stream in the IB). However, a lot of ethnic Chinese kids are in international schools precisely because mommy and daddy thought it would be cool to speak Chinglish with junior, and the child therefore lacks the Chinese language skills to cut it in a local school. Since the international schools are better at dealing with second language or delayed language development kids than local schools, these schools are probably the best place for these kids. Of course, that isn't how their parents think of it; they think they've done junior a real favor. These kids are typically lousy in Chinese. Most non-Chinese kids in international schools learn to order dinner, and that is about all.

Are there still government-sponsored schools that teach mainly in English?

Yes. In 1997, the government cut the number to about 120. Some of them really are English medium of instruction, and some of their kids end up native-like in English, but most of them are Chinglish medium of instruction. It seems to me that most of the kids coming out of these schools don't develop literacy skills to the level of an educated, or even non-educated native speaker in either language. However, they generally do better in most subjects than CMI educate kids because parents typically think EMI is better, so if their child is bright enough to get into an EMI school, then that is where they go. The higher Cert and A-level results are mostly due to the kids being in an environment with other bright kids, and is more in spite of being taught in English than because of it. The average local parent is incapable of believing that, though.

[gato]

I didn't realize that CMI and EMI stood for Chinese/English Medium Instruction. I thought it was the distinction between public (government) schools and private schools.

Seems that many HK kids go to private schools. Why is that? Are government schools not good? In the US, only in minority-heavy urban areas, do parents sent kids to private schools in large numbers.

The kids who go to the better overseas universities, or who manage to integrate and improve their English while at an average university, probably don't even return to HK.

Why do those who return with a US or UK college degree have to take IELTS?

Some of them really are English medium of instruction, and some of their kids end up native-like in English, but most of them are Chinglish medium of instruction. It seems to me that most of the kids coming out of these schools don't develop literacy skills to the level of an educated, or even non-educated native speaker in either language.

I suspected that was the case. I firmly believe that for education, to be practical and cost-effective, needs to work to the strengths of local teaching resources. The availability of native-level English-speaking teachers in mainland is even worse, so the international schools here probably either have mediocre teachers or are outrageously expensive (US$25,000-plus tuition for non-boarding high schools). Given the available pool of teachers, for Chinese-speaking students here, I think it would be more effective educationally to have brilliant local Chinese-speaking teachers than mediocre native English-speaking teachers. It would probably be cheaper, too, to hire brilliant local teachers than mediocre native English-speaking teachers.

[calibre2001]

I blame all the Hong Kong movies from the '80's.

It's more like the actual social situation of pre-handover HK (which has its roots in the economic boom of HK in the 80s) rather that resulted in this. The older HK movies were merely reflective of this.

[The World of Chinese]

I don't think it's too surprising, given the "journalistic" standards practiced in some places on the mainland. We learned a couple months ago that under Chinese law, plagiarism in news journalism is completely legal, so long as the story is "time-sensitive." Certainly, there are some incredible journalists from the Chinese mainland (Wang Keqin!) but there are others who can barely write. But they don't have to, as they can just copy stories from others.