Mishearing something in 我不能悲傷地坐在你身旁, need help

[sleepy eyes]

Silly question, I know, but I keep hearing an absurd "mi" for 地, not a de or a dì. I've heard it countless times today. I saw a live version on youtube and it just made me hear it as something similar to "mi" all the more. Am I mishearing it completely? Can someone clear this up for me? With an explanation of the usage, if it's not too much. Thanks in advance!

[creamyhorror]

Not even a Youtube link for your request?

[sleepy eyes]

Oh, sorry, stupid me!

[aristotle1990]

地, 的, and 得 are often pronounced "di" when singing.

[sleepy eyes]

Thanks for the help! I knew the possibility, as indicated above, but it was the fact that I was hearing something else that lead me to ask. Probably a very, very, minor degree of assimilation (not sure which type though) is going on when he pronounces it and is messing with something that I'm phonologically conditioned, by my native language, to perceive. It's either something unusual like that that or I am going insane, because the sound is very clear to me, and I do have some formal training in phonetics, even acoustic phonetics. Well, I'll cut the rambling short, thanks for the answer!

To tell the truth, even after your input, I still do not hear "di" at all.

[creamyhorror]

It's clearly pronounced 'di' in that video (especially at 0:55), not a borderline case. It could be your conditioning, as you say. Maybe in the "ng"+"d" combination "d" sounds like "m" to you.

aristotle, are you sure 得 can be pronounced 'di' in songs? I'm doubtful about that.

[aristotle1990]

@creamyhorror

I don't actually know, but I'd imagine that if 的 and 地 can be, so can 得 (as used in phrases like 说得快, not 得到, which I think is always "de dao" in songs). Chinese people confuse them all the time, and they're somewhat similar semantically and grammatically anyway, so why not?

[sleepy eyes]

I do hear it somewhere else (sorry, have to find the mark again), but nowhere else again, and not at 0:55. As superfluous as this seems, it's remarkably interesting to me. I believe he is from Yunnan. I'll look into both the dialect and the "putonghua accent" over there. I'll ask some native friends about their perception as well.

Oh, just as further info that I forgot to add, since d can be voiced or voiceless in spoken chinese: I'm terribly comfortable with perceiving both, since they are a minimum pair in my native language. The problem would be something else.

And thank you both for your answers

[creamyhorror]

I don't actually know, but I'd imagine that if 的 and 地 can be, so can 得 (as used in phrases like 说得快, not 得到, which I think is always "de dao" in songs).

If you aren't certain, then maybe you should couch your assertion. I hear 的 and 地 being pronounced as 'di' in songs, but don't really remember the same for 得.

Chinese people confuse them all the time, and they're somewhat similar semantically and grammatically anyway, so why not?

In Taiwan the distinction between them is preserved as I understand it, and most (popular) Mandopop comes from Taiwan.

[aristotle1990]

In Taiwan the distinction between them is preserved as I understand it, and most (popular) Mandopop comes from Taiwan.

The di for de thing is generally a feature of older songs, so you're not likely to hear it in most modern Mandopop anyway.

Check out this video, where 跑得快 is sung as 跑di快:

And the comments here:

For as long as he has known, Magnus has had an Ayi (Nanny) that comes in and helps take care of him while we are at work. Now, our Ayi cannot speak a lick of English, so the only way for Magnus to communicate with her is to speak chinese, which has elevated his ability ten-fold.

[...]

Wow, Magnus speaks real Dalianhua! Notice his “pao di kuai” as opposed to standard mandarin “pao de kuai”.

I passed this on to a Chinese friend from Hebei, who confirms that in kindergarten they sung it as "pao di kuai". It's a regional thing, and while di for 的 and 地 is certainly more common, di for 得 is not unheard of.

[creamyhorror]

Okay, so it does exist as a regional variation and maybe in older or regional songs. Thanks for the clarification.

[xiaocai]

I do hear it somewhere else (sorry, have to find the mark again), but nowhere else again, and not at 0:55. As superfluous as this seems, it's remarkably interesting to me. I believe he is from Yunnan. I'll look into both the dialect and the "putonghua accent" over there. I'll ask some native friends about their perception as well.

It is clearly a "di" to me at 0:55. Apparently he is from Jiangsu. But he does not sing in dialect nor with any obvious local accent.

Chinese people confuse them all the time

I think it depends how you were taught in school. Many people from my batch know the difference.

and most (popular) Mandopop comes from Taiwan.

So it's just Mandopop from Taiwan right. They don't set the standard.

[creamyhorror]

So it's just Mandopop from Taiwan right. They don't set the standard.

Indeed they don't, but I wasn't talking about Standard Mandarin, but about whether in practice people sometimes sing "di" for 得 (with reference to popular Mandarin music like the OP's song, i.e. Mandopop).

(If you're implying that Taiwanese Mandopop isn't the mainstream for Mandopop, well, from my perspective in Singapore, it pretty much is...)

[zenmonk]

Hey guys, I can speak both Mandarin and some Chinese dialects very well, so I think I can offer you guys some useful infos.

Here are some basic informations about this issue.

The first, loot at the composition and pronunciation in the Standard Mandarin: 跑（verb）得（de）快（adjective），想得（de）美。

The second, Standard Mandarin, the Putonghua is created base on North Mandarin, there have other Mandarins but they are not Putonghua, like South-west Mandarin, Jianghuai Mandarin, North-west Mandarin.

In North Mandarin (Putonghua ), people almost never say "di" for "得".

But in other Mandarins, in my experience, many people say "di" for "得". For example in some of Shanxi dialect (陕西省, North-west Mandarin ) they say "di" for "得". And it's very common in South-west Mandarin that people say "di" for "得", in Hubei, Sichuan, Yunnan, Guizhou and other regions. For example:

跑得快: Pao Di Kuai（South-west Mandarin） ———————— （Standard Mandarin say Pao De Kuai）

想得美：Xiang Di Mei（South-west Mandarin） ———————— （Standard Mandarin say Xiang De Mei）

A live example:

Baishui's song:《Time》: http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/fYj6BUbeHwY/

Many "得" in this song are sung as "di". Baishui is a young singer and song writer from Sichuan province, Sichuan dialect is a part of South-west Mandarin.

Hope these infos will be useful for you all.

Thanks

Monk

2011-02-04