眼儿 - how do you pronounce this?

[trisha2766]

I have a children's book with '眼儿' in it. Do you pronounce the 'er' like a separate syllable or run them together like 'yar'? Usually they are run together, with the last consonant kind of taken out, but I wasn't sure in this case, as I couldn't find it in a dictionary.

The full sentence is '肚脐眼儿被风吹', if that helps any.

[renzhe]

肚脐眼儿 is a word, meaning belly button.

When 儿 denotes erhua (the rolling of the tongue), as it does in this case, it is merged with the preceding syllable. So it is pronounced "yar", and written as "yanr".

儿 is read as "er" when it means "child".

[trisha2766]

Thanks! Now I know I'm pronouncing it right!

[bryce1]

It is too bad that most "儿话音" is not transcribed differently than the character "儿" (I believe that it should, in proper notation, be in subscript instead of a full character), because it is often difficult to tell its pronunciation unless you are familiar with the words.

Don't worry though, even Jackie Chan has difficulty reading 儿话音 the first time he sees it! (probably since a lot of 儿话音 is not part of standard Mandarin) Here is a good 儿话 tongue twister:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CxLePKlvXk

I am curious.. are there any dictionaries which have entries with 儿话音? (including those which are more regional specific : 花儿，公园儿，人儿， etc?)

[Daan]

The new ABC E-C/C-E dictionary indicates where rhotacisation is possible, albeit only for standard Mandarin. So it gives huā[r], but not rén[r], which is decidedly less standard.

[jbradfor]

MDBG gives a lot of erhua readings as well.

[bryce1]

Thank you for your replies! I will have a look at those two dictionaries.

[jbradfor]

It is too bad that most "儿话音" is not transcribed differently than the character "儿" (I believe that it should, in proper notation, be in subscript instead of a full character)

I have never heard of or seen 儿 in subscript. Which is not to say it shouldn't be, just that I haven't seen it. Do you have an example?

because it is often difficult to tell its pronunciation unless you are familiar with the words.

In what way does 儿 differ from all the other characters with multiple readings, in which you need to know the meaning to know how it is pronounced?

[renzhe]

Some dictionaries indicate erhua using subscript. New Century, for example, and I also remember seeing it in a Taiwanese dictionary.

I've never seen it in proper text, though, outside of dictionaries.

[bryce1]

I suppose it's similar to how pinyin tones are not normally marked in the majority of official texts, even though it is supposed to be (and does not take up any more space if they are added as diacritics).

I've seen the 儿 in subscript in some of my beginner's Chinese books. It is not normally used either though because subscript is not easily typed/inputted on most keyboards.

I have seen though that in some Northern dialects, 儿 can sometimes differentiate between words. Ex. : 白面 (báimiàn "flour") and 白面儿 (báimiànr "heroin").

Are there any others like this that anyone can think of? (almost all of which would be spoken and not written Chinese)

[renzhe]

Writing erhua using normal 儿 is completely correct. It's been written like that for hundreds of years.

I have seen though that in some Northern dialects, 儿 can sometimes differentiate between words. Ex. : 白面 (báimiàn "flour") and 白面儿 (báimiànr "heroin").

Not just in northern dialects, in standard Mandarin Chinese too.

Check this thread for some common examples.

[jbradfor]

I suppose it's similar to how pinyin tones are not normally marked in the majority of official texts, even though it is supposed to be (and does not take up any more space if they are added as diacritics).

I fear I'm sounding argumentative here, although I'm really not trying to be.

Could you point me to "official texts" that use pinyin? I tend to think of official texts as only using characters, and pinyin is used only for pedagogical purposes, but I'm quite willing to be proved wrong.

Not just in northern dialects, in standard Mandarin Chinese too.

I believe a characteristic of northern dialects is that erhua is used when not part of standard mandarin, as renzhe indications, not that erhua is used at all.

[Hofmann]

I've read somewhere (forgot where; no citation; sorry) that 兒化韻 is etymologically 兒 as a diminutive, like 子. Therefore, it is not wrong to write 兒 the same size as other characters.

[bryce1]

@renzhe : Thank you for the link! That was exactly what I was looking for. I wonder if there exists a database/exhaustive list anywhere?

Not just in northern dialects, in standard Mandarin Chinese too.

I don't think the 儿 is part of any pairs where it changes the meaning in standard Mandarin though. But the 儿 is of course in standard Mandarin as well!

儿化 can definitely be written as a full character and is indeed correct! But in my opinion, it is more phonetically accurate to write it in subscript (of course, on a computer, it is not always easy to do this, just like it is not easy to type IPA symbols). 儿话音 and the character 儿 are completely different pronunciations-the former being an "r" sound added on (which can also influence the rest of the syllable) and the latter being a whole different syllable. I believe this is the logic behind many textbooks' writing it in subscript, so as to help the readers. If you look at the video above, you will see even some native speakers can .. se tromper (mistake) the pronunciation of a new "儿" word which they haven't seen before!

--

Could you point me to "official texts" that use pinyin? I tend to think of official texts as only using characters, and pinyin is used only for pedagogical purposes, but I'm quite willing to be proved wrong.

There are books which are entirely in pinyin with tone marks.. but that is different. (I think they are mostly for 少数民族）

However, in an English text, (assuming that the Chinese government are going to follow their own spelling conventions), Chinese words in pinyin are, in theory, supposed to have tone marks. I think any Chinese word should, really, since it shows how to pronounce the word and does not make it any longer. (Once again, the fact that the diacritics are not on most keyboards does make it difficult again! and the fact that many (most?) Chinese are not consciously aware of the tones they are using while they are pronouncing words, since it is their first language)

In Japan, I believe, they always use the macron (or they do fairly regularly) to show vowel length. I think it would be good if the same were in China as well with tone marks.

For example, street signs, businesses, etc, could be using them. And I have seen a photo of an official government building with the pinyin.. but alas, this is rare!

Most of the time, for me, it does not cause any problems.. especially now that I can read most characters. But for learners/foreigners, it can be a great help to know how to correctly pronounce the place you are going to, for example.

[jbradfor]

I don't think the 儿 is part of any pairs where it changes the meaning in standard Mandarin though.

Did you read the thread renzhe pointed you to?

Chinese are not consciously aware of the tones they are using while they are pronouncing words, since it is their first language

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that -- could you elaborate? It obvious that when speaking, Chinese don't think "3rd tone, 2nd tone, 4th tone", etc.. But then again, any even half-way fluent non-native speaker of Chinese does not either, or at least I didn't. But Chinese are certainly aware of tones, and are able to tell you which tone a given character is if you ask them -- or at least every Chinese native speaker I've asked is able to, although sometimes you can see them saying the character in their head.

For example, street signs, businesses, etc, could be using them

Ah, street signs.... The bane of every foreigner in Taiwan :o For a funny take on this, you might want to read this. In particular on tones: "Although tones are an essential component of Mandarin Chinese, street signs need to be able to be read in a single, quick glance. Tone marks could lessen legibility in this case. This is something that deserves further study."

[renzhe]

and the fact that many (most?) Chinese are not consciously aware of the tones they are using while they are pronouncing words, since it is their first language)

Not while in the middle of fluent speech, but they will know the tones for the words if you ask them. Same goes for other parts of speech, such as initials and finals, and sentence prosody -- you don't tend to think of such categories while speaking.

Keep in mind that many people in China speak Mandarin as a second language, and also have issues with Mandarin tones, and have to learn them in school.