li3 confusion

[rmpalpha]

I've been going through the characters in NPCR via Skritter and have been trying to learn the traditional variant of the characters therein. I find that there are a number of words that use li3, but have different radicals （里，理，裡 - haven't seen any others yet）. So, is there any advice to determine which of the three I should use (especially distinguishing between 裡 and 里）? Thanks!

[Gharial]

Way back whenever ("Long, long ago, in a China far, far away..." ) there was originally just the character 里 meaning 'neighbourhood' or somesuch, which became the phonetic* in the slightly more complex character 裡 or 裏 (i.e. that had the clothing radical added on its left side, or on its top and bottom sides in the form of the "split" clothing radical) meaning 'lining, inside'. Things eventually came full circle when 里 became more or less promulgated as the simplified form of 裏/裡 (seeing as all are pronounced the same, but 里 has fewer strokes and is thus quicker to write). So it's basically a 2 onto 1 "mapping", via homophonic substitution, in the modern/mainland simplified script at least. (The differing meanings will thus only be explicitly signalled by the two differing characters in texts hailing from places that continue to use traditional forms, namely Taiwan and Hong Kong).

Anyway, I have it noted in some stuff I wrote as: 里 lǐ, neighbourhood; hometown; ½km; 里 (裏 (裡)) lǐ, li, lining; in(side).

The 'in(side)' meaning is very likely the more frequent, whilst the other meaning(s) finds expression in phrases such as 公里 (gong1li3, kilometer), 英里 (ying1li3, mile) and 千里 (qian1li3, 'a long distance'). You can find a wealth of compounds for both meanings in online dictionaries such as zhongwen.com (though this deals primarily in traditional characters, and will thus for the actual compounds themselves necessitate two look-ups, one for 里 with just its older/"pre-simplification borrowing" meaning of 'neighbourhood~½km', and one for the traditional character 裡/裏 , which has always had just the meaning of 'lining/inside'), and MDBG (which deals primarily with simplified characters, thus requiring just the following single look-up): http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqb=*%E9%87%8C*&wdrst=0 .

*Such phonetics will often be fairly obvious in even relatively small Pinyin-ordered dictionaries, but resources such as the aforementioned zhongwen.com (see Harbaugh's 111th genealogy (字谱), as headed by 田 but easily accessed via a Pinyin search for the lǐ under discussion), or the following site for Wieger's work, will allow you to explore the phonetics in greater depth: http://www.smarthanzi.net/index.php . (Click on 'Find a character' and then look in the 7-stroke section for phonetic no.287).

[skylee]

I find that there are a number of words that use li3, but have different radicals （里，理，裡 - haven't seen any others yet）

Indeed there are a number of them. I've just checked the Lin Yutang dictionary (not the best one around), which lists the following -

李, 邐, 理, 醴, 里, 裏, 澧, 禮, 裡, 鋰, 俚, 蠡, 鯉, 鱧, 娌

If you care about 裡 at all could I assume that you are learning the traditional script? If you are, then the meanings of 里 and 裡are quite different and should not be confusing, as far as I know.

[LucyxLucy]

I think both 里 and 裡 are the simplified versions of '裏', the difference being than the former is considered 'simplified' and is used in Mainland and the latter is 'traditional' and is used in Taiwan (I'm not sure about HK though). To me, 里 either means inside, as in 里面(inside), or a measure of distance like '公里(kilometer)'.

The second one '理' has more to do with thought, i.e. 理由(reason)，理论(theory)，and 理想(goal/dream).

Hope that helped!

[jbradfor]

@LucyxLucy, do you have any reference for that? Because that's not what I was taught.

I think 裡 and 裏 are alternative traditional forms, meaning "inside". 里 is used for distance, and more often for place names and transliterations. 里 is also the simplified form of 裡/裏

Which, now that I read it, is pretty much what Gharial said . I just should have quoted that....

[Gharial]

Regarding 裏 versus 裡, Karlgren has the latter as a 'vulgar' variant of the former...so both are in their own way traditional (in that they both predate the promulgation of 里 as a simplified substitute). I assume that either traditional form may be used in places like Taiwan, but 裏 appears to be the standard in Japan.

[LucyxLucy]

@jbradfor

I just looked this up in the dictionary. So it turns out that we were both right about 里 and 裡 being simplified versions of 裏. The difference is that in terms of meaning 'inside', 裡 is used in Taiwan and 里 is used in Mainland (or PRC), and they are both used the exact same way and they mean the same thing.

For 'distance' 里 is used in both places.

裏 is not used as commonly in day to day situations anymore (probably because it takes too long to write).

[Gharial]

I perhaps shouldn't have mentioned 裏 (as it appears to have thrown up an additional complication), but I wanted to be as comprehensive as possible in my original post.

Anyway, looking now in my Far East C-E Dictionary (which I guess is my main guide to Taiwanese forms (norms?)) it only has 裡 bracketed, following, and in an appreciably smaller size font than [里]裏 , meaning that the Far East takes [里]裏 to be the standard* simplified versus traditional forms, and 裡 to be at most a 'popular' if not a 'corrupt' traditional form (echoing Karlgren's 'vulgar'). My Xinhua follows essentially the same order, whilst the original editions of both the Oxford/CP Concise and of the ABC C-E only include 裏 i.e. have no mention at all of 裡 in their entries or even their indexes.

But I only mention mainly PRC-focussed dictionaries because it is those that would seem (to me at least) to make the most sense in any discussion of what the terms 'simplified' versus 'traditional' might (or indeed do and therefore should) actually mean; that is, both 裏 and 裡 are traditional (but IMHO the former is standard and the latter a [non-standard, though still traditional] variant), with 里 the only real 'simplified' character here (in the usual sense of that term), as and when it stands in for the traditional form(s) by the process of homophonic substitution. (And when it isn't thus substituting, i.e. when it means 'neighbourhood' rather than 'inside', it is actually itself technically a traditional character!)

About the only dictionary I have that treats 裡 as the standard complex form is Harbaugh's, but I don't really view his work (innovative and useful though it is) as a standard in itself!

*The Far East's definition of 'standard' is effectively 'those forms that are treated as "standard" by the majority of Chinese dictionaries in circulation'.

[skylee]

裏 is not used as commonly in day to day situations anymore (probably because it takes too long to write).

I tend to disagree. I use 裏 instead of 裡. I believe 裏 is the proper form taught in schools here in Hong Kong (not sure though). IMHO The reason why it appears to be less popular is that Taiwan has picked 裡 as the standard form. And most Chinese input systems used by traditional script users follow the Taiwan standard, so it is less easy to type 裏.

About the only dictionary I have that treats 裡 as the standard complex form is Harbaugh's, but I don't really view his work (innovative and useful though it is) as a standard in itself!

You might wish to note that the online dictionary of Taiwan's Ministry of Education lists 裡 as the standard form and 裏 as the variant. The Ministry's Variants Dictionary does the same. Take a look -> http://dict.variants...ra/fra03732.htm

PS - also take a look at this -> 常用字字形表

[Gharial]

Thanks for the links, Skylee. If I'd actually been living in Taiwan or Hong Kong then I'm sure I'd have observed what the standard was in either place and adjusted my habits accordingly! (I've only really experienced Shanghai and Japan).

To be honest I find 裡 easier to write - it's quite hard to pack all of 裏 into the same vertical dimensions as other characters.

But probably the easiest thing (for most westerners anyway!) is just to write in simplified Chinese and thus use 里 all the time!

[skylee]

Oh I have just found this, which I think is a very useful tool that shows what is taught in Hong Kong schools as decided by the Education Bureau of HK Government -> 香港小學學習字詞表

English version - Lexical Items with English Explanations for Fundamental Chinese Learning in Hong Kong Schools

You can input "li3" and choose 漢語拼音 in the left panel to see the chosen form taught.

[Gharial]

This from the new ABC ECCE: 'For some purposes, such as ordering the variants in...lǐ 里 [裡/裏]...we have taken into consideration the "Big5" character set used for electronic text in Taiwan. The basic version of that character set does not include...裏... .' (Page 519, C-E section's 'How to Use this Dictionary VI: Traditional and Simplified Characters').