Emigration, exposure and bilingualism.

[xianhua]

In terms of all-round Chinese and English language skills, which age would you consider to be the most effective in terms of a move from China to an English-speaking country? From my experience, the Chinese who moved to the UK after completion of higher education never communicate at the same level as native speakers - or use the language in the same way. Conversely, if the person emigrated at a much younger age then their English may become native (albeit with a slight accent) but their Chinese would obviously differ to that of a native Chinese speaker, having lacked the same exposure.

Are there actually any true bilinguals in Mandarin and English (by which I mean you couldn't tell the person from a native speaker in either country)?

[aristotle1990]

Are there actually any true bilinguals in Mandarin and English (by which I mean you couldn't tell the person from a native speaker in either country)?

Yes, though they generally do not have equal competency in both languages. I know a Chinese-Japanese kid whose mother is Chinese and who grew up in China but who moved to Japan for middle and high school and has impeccable Chinese and Japanese; when speaking either language he's indistinguishable from a native speaker. Still, his Chinese is not as good as his Japanese, and his vocabulary and cultural knowledge is less than what would be expected of an educated native speaker of Chinese.

As for Mandarin and English, I know this Singaporean guy who grew up in China but who got most of his education in Singapore, and though his English is pretty phenomenal, he's still got a bit of an accent. I also know a Chinese-American in a similar situation; his English is nearly accent-free.

[jbradfor]

his vocabulary and cultural knowledge is less than what would be expected of an educated native speaker of Chinese.

That's pretty much what I was going to say, but aristotle1990 beat me to it. It seems very difficult to me to get the full vocabulary (without explicit studying) in two languages of an educated native speaking, and learning all the cultural references and things of childhood seems nearly impossible to obtain as an adult.

[fanglu]

though his English is pretty phenomenal, he's still got a bit of an accent

But is it a singporean accent or a chinese accent? Some native English-speakers' accents I find difficult to understand, that doesn't necessarily mean their English is worse than mine.

[gato]

The best plan in terms of developing language skills might be to finishing elementary in the first language environment, secondary school and college in the second language environment while continuing to study the first language at home, and then return to the first language environment for further education and work. But still it won't be easy to achieve high native level in two languages that are so different from each other like English and Chinese. It'll be easier to achieve with a pair of similar languages -- like French and English, or Mandarin and Cantonese.

There is Dashan, of course. He's at high native in Chinese (and I presume in English, as well ;-), but he came to China in 1988 at the age of 23.

As for examples who are ethnic Chinese, you might also consider Lee Kaifu and Kaiser Kuo.

Lee Kaifu was born in Taiwan, went to the US at the age of 12 and lived there until the age of 37 when he came to China first to lead Microsoft Research in China and then Google China.

Another example is Kaiser Kuo, a Taiwanese American who was born in the US, came to China for a year or so after college left in 1989, came back to China at the age of 32 and has stayed here since. He was a member of a famous Chinese rock band (Tang Dynasty) and is currently the official spokesman for Baidu.

Lee Kaifu's English is certainly fluent, but he does have a slight non-native accent (compared to Kaiser Kuo). Lee Kaifu's Chinese is much better than Kuo's. Kuo's Chinese is quite fluent, but it's not yet at a high (college-educated) level.

Here are some example of their speaking in English and Chinese.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjMwNjAzMDMy.html

Lee Kaifu Chinese

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTAzOTY0ODg4.html

Kaiser Kuo Chinese

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjMyOTgwOTg0.html

Lee Kaifu / Kaiser Kuo English (Kaiser Kuo interviewing Lee Kaifu)

http://kaiserkuo.typepad.com/about.html

Kaiser Kuo (born in 1966)

I'm a native of Upstate New York, second in a brood of four produced by a couple of Henanese who made it to Ohio by way of Taipei. I grew up mainly in Tucson, Arizona, and went to college at U.C. Berkeley.

After college, I spent a year in China, during which I helped found the Chinese metal band Tang Dynasty (Tang Chao). After the unfortunate events of '89, I left China for a long stint in grad school at the University of Arizona, where I did an MA in East Asian Studies ('92) then worked half-assed toward a Ph.D. My abortive dissertation was on the rise of technocrats in post-Mao China. In 1996, I blew it off and came back to China to rejoin Tang Dynasty as lead guitarist. A Yoko Ono problem coupled with political disagreements over the nature of the American bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade in May of '99 put an end to that, sadly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai-Fu_Lee

Lee Kaifu

In 1973 （age of 12), Lee immigrated to the United States and attended high school in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. He graduated summa cum laude from Columbia University, earning a B.S. degree in computer science in 1983. He went on to earn a Ph.D. in computer science from Carnegie Mellon University in 1988.

[Lu]

I've read a comment by Kaiser Kuo somewhere that he found his Chinese lacking, I would also be surprised if a Chinese-American who came to China after having his entire education in the US would ever get a native level of Chinese.

That said, I know one example that might almost qualify: a former coworker who came from Taiwan to Canada when she was a kid, stayed with her Chinese-speaking family but got her education in English. She proceeded to get a degree in English literature, and her Chinese was great except for her writing skills, they were okay but not at a level that she could write for a magazine. She was also the fastest translator I've ever seen, basically just typing up the English as she read the Chinese.

[aristotle1990]

Can't believe I forgot to mention that Wilber Pan 潘玮柏, who grew up in the US but moved to Taiwan at the age 7, has no accent and is completely fluent in English and Mandarin. I remember watching this guy play a role on this Taiwanese TV show 《不良笑花》 and thinking nothing of it until he started speaking this incredible English one day. See him speak Chinese

, English

. Then have a look at his resume, courtesy of Wikipedia:

Pan was born and raised in West Virginia, United States and moved to Taiwan at the age of seven. He attended Taipei American School and graduated in 1999. Before launching his acting and singing career, he attended California State Polytechnic University, Pomona (aka Cal Poly Pomona) in the United States, but left before graduating to pursue an acting career in 2009.

[gato]

thinking nothing of it until he started speaking this incredible English one day.

He has a little bit of an Ebonic accent. ;) Hard to tell how good his Chinese is because like most entertainment interviews, the language is at a very colloquial level. I've met a number of graduates of Taipei American School whose Chinese is not as good as their English. Almost all their classes are taught in English. It's one of the drawbacks of attending an international school.

[aristotle1990]

He has a little bit of an Ebonic accent

Which makes it all the more impressive.

Hard to tell how good his Chinese is because like most entertainment interviews, the language is at a very colloquial level. I've met a number of graduates of Taipei American School whose Chinese is not as good as their English. Almost all their classes are taught in English. It's one of the drawbacks of attending an international school.

Oh yeah, no doubt, but still, people with such native accents in two languages like that are rare. I mean, he's a famous actor and singer in Taiwan -- how bad can his Mandarin be?

[anonymoose]

is completely fluent in English

Fluent, yes, but unless I misheard, it seems like he still makes mistakes that most native speakers wouldn't. For example, at around 5:01, I think he said "catched".

[aristotle1990]

I actually "catched" that one too. I don't know where it came from -- it could be part of the Ebonics thing.

[gato]

Don't want this to turn into a contest. ;)

[Lu]

I mean, he's a famous actor and singer in Taiwan -- how bad can his Mandarin be?

I'm very impressed with Wang Lihong's Chinese, but I've seen comments saying that he had a bad ABC accent in Lust, Caution.

[alkahez]

Don't want this to turn into a contest. ;)

I quite agree with gato.

I grew up speaking English - Malaysian way, that is; more of casual conversational level. Never attended a Chinese-medium school but somehow picked up Cantonese and other dialects; only learned Mandarin much later. I could only read and write Chinese a little. I was not that attuned to things Chinese, entertainment and all that. They are more like incidentals.

Some things about accents. I am more to speaking as you know it, doing what you can, and not imitating others just for that sake. Imitating accents can actually give people goose-bumps and they sound unnatural. I do encounter situations speaking to different nationalities and we communicate perfectly well. At times the pronunciations and accents just comes naturally. If there are aspects that are different, we simply say, "we don't mean that here", "I don't quite get you", or "I do not understand". And we move on to make things clearer.

[wedge]

http://v.youku.com/v...MwNjAzMDMy.html

Lee Kaifu Chinese

Can anyone comment on how good Lee Kaifu's Chinese is? He clearly has a native Taiwanese accent and speaks very fluently, but would you consider his speaking level to college level or above? My level is not high enough that I'd be able to tell.

[wedge]

Btw, I agree with Gato. Among my Chinese American friends, there are many that I'd consider to be fluent speakers of both English and Mandarin, but there's only 1 that I'd consider 100% native level both culturally and from a language perspective. He grew up in the PRC and moved to California when he was around 8. He kept up his Chinese by watching Chinese TV, reading Chinese web forums, and going back to visit frequently.

[xianhua]

He grew up in the PRC and moved to California when he was around 8

Is there any hint of an accent when he speaks English?

[wedge]

Is there any hint of an accent when he speaks English?

His speech is a bit unique sounding but it doesn't sound like an accent. I can't tell if it's because he was born in China or if it's because some people just sound a bit different (for example Christopher Walken or Barbara Walters). If you were on the phone with him, you wouldn't guess that he wasn't born in the US.

I can think of 3 friends (all female) who were born in China and didn't emigrate to the US until they were 12-14 that have absolutely no accent and no grammar problems when they speak English. Much better than Lee Kaifu and I'd already consider his accent quite good -- blows my mind.

[gato]

Yes, I would consider Lee Kaifu's Chinese to be native college-level. He must have kept reading Chinese after he went to the US middle school. It is probably not the best college level, but good enough to be average.

[wushijiao]

Are there actually any true bilinguals in Mandarin and English (by which I mean you couldn't tell the person from a native speaker in either country)?

Mr. Gato!