native level

[Scoobyqueen]

as above

[aristotle1990]

Impressive, but to say that he "attained the level of a well-educated native" is almost certainly an exaggeration, especially if he was studying in Germany the whole time.

[Meng Lelan]

Without today's technology and assessment methods there's no way his language level could be accurately evaluated in his day.

[roddy]

Without today's technology and assessment methods

For example?

Dubious as I am about claims that anyone speaks 68 languages in any meaningful sense, I also fail to see what's amazing about someone studying something for two years, getting quite good at it, and then going on to continue to improve while applying the acquired skills. Could he use chopsticks, do we know?

[Scoobyqueen]

thanks for contributions

[Lu]

Impressive, but to say that he "attained the level of a well-educated native" is almost certainly an exaggeration, especially if he was studying in Germany the whole time.

I think perhaps a well-educated Chinese was also a lot less educated back then than now, making it more feasible to get to that level.

I wonder how Schliemann would have fared if he had tried learning Chinese. When he decided to go to Greece to dig for ancient Troy he supposedly learned both old and new Greek in a matter of months or less.

[Meng Lelan]

For example?

Depends on which language you're assessing. For most languages these days it would be the ACTFL Oral Proficiency Interview (to assess speaking and listening) and the Written Proficiency Assessment (to assess writing). Trained evaluators would use these two tools to rank his proficiency from novice on up to native. But those assessment tools didn't exist back then, much less the HSK. And the HSK does not measure chopstick proficiency.

[renzhe]

can imagine that a particularly talented individual can manage to become conversational in a couple of years, to the point where they don't sound obviously foreign in short everyday conversations. It would be very difficult, but I can imagine that some people out there can pull it off.

But these types of stories are typically blown way out of proportion by the press. A well-educated native will have command of over 30,000 words and will have read dozens of thousands of pages of literature. You don't learn that in two years.

[imron]

Also bear in mind however that in 1888 there was no Internet, no TV, no radio and so on. Without Chinese-forums and the latest episodes of Chinese soaps to distract him, I'm sure he could have made amazing progress in a short period of time ;)

[Hofmann]

Difficult. Especially if you think "well educated" excludes almost all Chinese people.

[ma3zi1]

It is one thing to understand many languages on paper, but being able to use them fluidly in a real sense with native speakers is entirely another beast. However, the Wiki article on Emil does make some impressive claims about him, he clearly had a gift with learning languages.

[gato]

Aren't there people on the Net today with similar claims?

[aristotle1990]

*cough*yes*cough*

I mean, as renzhe says, it's not impossible to become fluent with a perfect accent in one or two years -- if you've got lots of talent and effort -- but to turn yourself into a well-educated native? Sorry, unless you've got Kim Peek level abilities, ain't gonna happen.

(To be fair, Khatz doesn't say his Japanese is perfect, but it sometimes seems like he's claiming Japanese can be completely mastered in a very short period of time, confusing "indistinguishable from native in a five minute conversation" with "native".)

[roddy]

Oral Proficiency Interview (to assess speaking and listening) and the Written Proficiency Assessment (to assess writing). Trained evaluators would use these two tools to rank his proficiency from novice on up to native.

Pretty sure they had speaking and writing technology in the 19th Century. It's academic to the point of being silly, but I'll wager they could potentially have come up with a valid language exam even then. Or just ask his professor for the two years. Or whatever, it all seems a little silly.

[valikor]

It's probably possible for some particularly brilliant people to reach the level of a well-educated native in 2 years. There are plenty of people with Bachelor's Degrees in the US who don't have a particularly strong command of English, but you could still consider them to be well-educated (maybe they studied math, sciences, etc.).

I don't know what a "well-educated native" in China meant 100 years ago.

PS - Most people, including myself, sound much better on paper than in real life. Ever read a CV?

[skylee]

I don't know what a "well-educated native" in China meant 100 years ago.

I would think that someone who had earned a title in the imperial examination in Qing Dynasty would be considered well-educated. And those who had studied overseas too. 100 years ago it was 1911. It was about this time that the Peking University and the University of Hong Kong were formally established. I would think that Chinese people who taught or studied in such universities would be considered quite well-educated.

[valikor]

I would think that someone who had earned a title in the imperial examination in Qing Dynasty would be considered well-educated

Right, but wouldn't people with less than this be considered educated, too? Clearly nobody is saying that you can become as good at Chinese as the most well educated Chinese people within 2 years. It seems much more reasonable that they were referring to the 老百姓 of educated folks.

[skylee]

I think I had missed that important distinction that everyone has been pointing out. Thank you for pointing it out again.

[daofeishi]

I've heard many claims about people becoming native-like fluent in one or two years, but in my experience, such claims always come from secondary sources, and usually from people who are in no position to verify or falsify the claims. I have never seen or heard direct evidence of people who have studied a language for 1-2 years and becoming fluent, except in the cases where the person already spoke a language closely related to the target language. Until I get some more evidence, I take all such claims with a grain of salt.

[Meng Lelan]

Or whatever, it all seems a little silly.

You are correct. It is all really quite daft, I would say.