native level

[mfgillia]

We have had discussions in a number of different topics from American politics, foreign policy and casual events and she's quite adept to my post-graduate level, native English ears. She spends most of her time speaking Mandarin and my Taiwanese friends have had similar conversations with her in Mandarin. In these situations, she often serves as the translator between us.

However, I do agree that most people could not reach such a level in so short a time and without formal study. I also strongly agree its not fair and she shouldn't be able to have these abilities. <_<

[mfgillia]

Another observation - I've seen a few cases where native English speakers with 6 months or so of Mandarin college study come to Taiwan on missions (i.e., Mormons), spend 1 to 2 years in Taiwan and then far and away have better Mandarin skills than someone who's studied Mandarin for +5 years diligently building up their vocabulary. In such cases, their literacy is also generally quite poor.

I believe, but am not sure, the former U.S. Ambassador to China Jon Huntsman, is one such example with less than two years living in Taiwan but has the ability to speak at quite a high level debating complex foreign policy and economic issues.

From my perspective as someone with no real talent for picking up languages, I don't truly understand how they are really able to accomplish this but guess its the combination of having lots of natural ability plus being thrown into a completely immersive environment.

[anonymoose]

But his Chinese sounds rubbish.

[gato]

Maybe you can make a recording of a conversation with her in Mandarin and English, and we can check her out. ;-)

[renzhe]

Speaking of... I watched the CCTV gala this year and heard Da Shan speak for the first time.

I was shocked that he had a very clear foreign accent. I mean, the phrasing, the tones, it was all great, but you could immediately tell him apart as a foreigner. And he is still THE standard most of us are looking up to.

I've seen the situation described by daofeishi as well, with several people. The terms "fluent", "native-like" and similar are extremely dependent on context and can be stretched very far.

If I meet anyone who became comparable to a university graduate in a couple of years, I'll let you know. The gap between a cozy chat over a coffee in a bar somewhere and the level of an actual well-educated native is enormous.

[mfgillia]

Unfortunately it seems we aren't all created equally when it comes to learning languages. The exceptional cases are interesting but don't think there is really much to learn from them.

In my experience, such people generally make for lousy teachers as everything came easy to them. The idea that I could skip the studying process and learn more quickly from watching TV and casually chatting to strangers in the neighborhood is just a pleasant dream to me.

[renzhe]

Unfortunately it seems we aren't all created equally when it comes to learning languages. The exceptional cases are interesting but don't think there is really much to learn from them.

I don't agree, at least not completely.

People who pick up languages easily often do many things instinctively, without knowing why they do them, but these are often things which can be learned and trained. It's not just that they absorb languages magically, but they (naturally) approach the learning in a way that is productive, while other people (naturally) approach them in convoluted ways which are not good.

Of course, there are factors like really good (photographic) memory and a well-developed ear, which are very useful and difficult to "learn", but this is not the whole story, IMHO. I think that inability to learn is often a result of convincing yourself that you cannot learn.

I don't think that learning a language is fundamentally different from learning any other skill, like playing violin. There are things that are useful: good ear, willingness to experiment, memory, immersion, but a lot of it comes down to practice.

[simple101]

The whole fluent thing is kind of confusing to me. I'm a native English speaker but constantly make grammatical errors, invent words, and forget how to say things. I'm not sure whether or not I can even be considered fluent in my native language. I guess if someone learns English to the standard that they can make the same constant errors as me I'll consider then native level.

[anonymoose]

I think everyone makes mistakes when speaking their own language. The mistakes that foreign learners usually make, however, tend to be different to those of a native speaker.

[mfgillia]

I don't agree, at least not completely.

People who pick up languages easily often do many things instinctively, without knowing why they do them, but these are often things which can be learned and trained. It's not just that they absorb languages magically, but they (naturally) approach the learning in a way that is productive, while other people (naturally) approach them in convoluted ways which are not good.

Of course, there are factors like really good (photographic) memory and a well-developed ear, which are very useful and difficult to "learn", but this is not the whole story, IMHO. I think that inability to learn is often a result of convincing yourself that you cannot learn.

I don't think that learning a language is fundamentally different from learning any other skill, like playing violin. There are things that are useful: good ear, willingness to experiment, memory, immersion, but a lot of it comes down to practice.

I think you are probably right for typical average to above average language learners that make consistent progress through diligent and thoughtful study. However, definitely disagree when it comes to the truly exceptional learners described above. Trying to duplicating their methods would generally be a waste of time for most of us.

[Chief123]

Actually the missionaries have 3 months of "formal" language learning, typically in the United States. It used to be only 2 months. Before, not sure about now, most of the Mandarin teachers in the United States were Americans who were returned missionaries. No special language training or degrees for most of them.

Their schedule is full. They get up at 6:30 or so for study religious and language. Then from about 9:30 AM to 9:30 PM they are out talking to people, teaching in Mandarin, meeting new people etc. This is 6+ days a week.

So they are constantly exposed to the language and have to learn it. They, many times, even speak Chinese to each other. Many of them also have native companions (missionaries work in twos) which helps a lot especially if the local doesn't speak much English.

An example of this exposure is that immediately upon getting to Taiwan they are assigned to an area for a short period of time then they are transferred to another area. Upon arriving in a new area, the first Sunday they attend church they have to stand up and introduce themselves and give a short talk in Mandarin. Sometimes there are only 25 people listening and sometimes hundreds so this type of exposure is something many students don't get.

They use Pinyin materials in the beginning - can't start studying characters until they can teach with some understanding 5 lessons.

I don't see natural ability here at all. There are thousands of these who do this in many languages around the world. They are just regular people who volunteer to share their beliefs and from there are assigned to a place to go - could be English speaking or foreign speaking.

They are on their mission a total of 2 years for men and 1 1/2 years for women. So a total of 21 months and 15 months on island. And yes you are right about Huntsman.

Mark

Another observation - I've seen a few cases where native English speakers with 6 months or so of Mandarin college study come to Taiwan on missions (i.e., Mormons), spend 1 to 2 years in Taiwan and then far and away have better Mandarin skills than someone who's studied Mandarin for +5 years diligently building up their vocabulary. In such cases, their literacy is also generally quite poor.

I believe, but am not sure, the former U.S. Ambassador to China Jon Huntsman, is one such example with less than two years living in Taiwan but has the ability to speak at quite a high level debating complex foreign policy and economic issues.

From my perspective as someone with no real talent for picking up languages, I don't truly understand how they are really able to accomplish this but guess its the combination of having lots of natural ability plus being thrown into a completely immersive environment.

[Guest realmayo]

Speaking of... I watched the CCTV gala this year and heard Da Shan speak for the first time.

I was shocked that he had a very clear foreign accent. I mean, the phrasing, the tones, it was all great, but you could immediately tell him apart as a foreigner.

Do others here agree? I've sometimes had similar heretical thoughts, but then I think if I closed my eyes and listened perhaps I'd assume he was Chinese?

[gato]

I think he still has very pronunciation. He didn't have too many lines in this year's program. The only word that might have come out a bit awkward is the "很简单啊" in the beginning in response to a question from the host on why people like Dashan.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQxMzA5MjQw.html

2011 春晚 大山

As I mentioned before, you will get a much better idea of how good someone's Chinese is by listening to how he sounds in an impromptu situation than in a rehearsed program. Here is an interview with Dashan. He sounds pretty native-like to me.

Dashan Interview Nov 2007 (Chinese) Part 1 / 采访大山 2007年11月 (中文) 2分之1

[renzhe]

Of course his Chinese is excellent, but don't you think that many of his initials sound a bit off? I mean, many native speakers have accent, but it's always a specific accent from a specific region, and you can put a finger on it.

Julien Gaudfroy also speaks really well and fluently:

Don't try this at home:

[Guest realmayo]

Perhaps we need native speakers to take a Turing -style test, a Da Shan test, to see if -- blind -- they recognise him as a foreigner. But too many people would already be familiar with how he speaks and would recognise his voice I guess?

Then again, I've always heard a slightly breathless, airy, earnest tone in a lot of Westerners' Chinese (including my own) and when I happened to bump into one of these guys I was initially a bit disappointed that I thought I could hear the same quality in his Chinese ... until, as I say, I started to wonder if I was imagining that only because I could SEE that he was tall and white.

Not that an indistinguishable-from-native-Chinese accent is a particularly realistic or necessary goal for most people studying the language, of course.

[aristotle1990]

I can tell that both are foreigners with my eyes closed. Their tones are perfect, voices are perfect, grammar is perfect, everything is perfect except...something. Can't quite place my finger on what it is. Some of the initials are a bit off (see that 小心 in 0:45 of that first Julien Gaudfroy link), but more than that, it's the timbre of the voice. Not sure if that's something you can really help, though.

Also, Julien has a

when he speaks English. I can't really hear it in his Chinese.

[gato]

Dashan might be enunciating every word too clearly. Julien Gaudfroy's Chinese does sound a bit more natural.

[wushijiao]

Just my two cents...but when it comes to speaking English/Chinese at a native level, one shouldn't focus too much efforts on accent and the like. Of course, it'd be great to speak like Dashan or Julien Gaudfroy...they both speak very well indeed. But I'm not sure if the pure ability to speak well is necessarily a great indicator of being "well educated" in another language, although the two probably go hand in hand in many cases. For example, I have met one or two people who have great spoken Chinese (as far as accurate pronunciation and tones) but weren't exactly well educated in all spheres of usage.

However, when talking about getting to a "well-educated" level, the thing that trips up people, in my observations, comes down to a few main factors:

1) wide range of vocab knowledge (especially rare, or technical words)

2) long sentences with many, many clauses

3) historical/cultural references

If you've ever been to an academic conference in Chinese, you might know what I'm talking about: some guys speak a whole paragraph, laden with clauses and qualifiers to the point where you can mentally see the numerous commas and semicolons popping up in the air, and they're speaking at light speed, with a gigantic vocabulary, often with traces of accents. This is the type of thing that many good foreign-learners struggle with.

Surprisingly enough, a good example of this sort of English is the Daily Show. I've watched that with fluent non-native speakers of English, and sometimes it's amazing how often the show uses many long sentences, culture allusions, puns, not to mention current affairs topics. Non-natives struggle with understanding that.

Anyway, I think it would be a big stretch to assume that a non-native speaker could acquire that knowledge in just two years. Educated Chinese people get to that level in roughly twenty years. As an adult learner, you could probably cut that time in half or more if you study hard, but then it's still a long process. You have to familiarize yourself with the vocabulary, history, and discourse over a considerable period of time.

[wedge]

http://v.youku.com/v...QxMzA5MjQw.html

2011 春晚 大山

In the CCTV CNY segment, I think the little kid's accent is better than Dashan's. They're both better than I'll ever be.

[aristotle1990]

Yeah, 艾迪's accent is great. Anyone know more about this kid?