Going to Taiwan simply for NTU's ICLP course a bad decision?

[Vincente]

Hi there, I am a British Chinese (intermediate Cantonese and Hakka speaker) and I am two months away from finishing my course at CUHK's Chinese Language Centre (for a Putonghua diploma). However, Hong Kong has always been a 'transition' point between the UK and a proper Mandarin speaking country. As a result, I am deciding whether to go to Beijing or Taiwan's ICLP. I would consider myself as an intermediate student - I know around 1,500-1,600 characters and I can have ordinary conversations in Mandarin, although I can't understand the news yet. I am interested in a career in the UK foreign office or using Mandarin in a business setting, both of which requires a high profeciency level.

For this reason I am leaning towards NTU ICLP; Beijing's IUP, on the otherhand, is far too expensive in my opinion. The course seems more selective, intense and elitist, thus it could be more effective since I only have an additional one year to study Mandarin. However, having visited Taipei (yes, I like it more because it's cleaner and the people are more polite) but the language really diverges from the PRC, and it's not simply the minor 'si/shi' problem. The other problems include the following: the prevalence of Taiyu, the lack of standard Mandarin speakers (from my one week trip there), slightly different grammar like 给, different terms for nouns and names. The last part is particually concerning because I don't see myself dealing with Taiwanese people in the future; consequently, I'm going to be expending a lot of energy and time learning things which would be useless once I leave Taiwan.

Yes, listening to non-standard Mandarin is also good practice, but I am worried that over the course of the year it will begin to influence my speech which, due to CUHK, family members and language partners, leans towards to the PRC standard. And finally, would someone with a strong command of traditional characters really be able to read simplified characters with no problems? Because even my mother (from HK) has problems at times understanding it.

Thanks for reading.

Anyone could give me any advice over this problem??

[renzhe]

I don't have first-hand experience with studying in Beijing or Taiwan, but if you are aiming for a high proficiency level, then the Taiwan/Beijing differences are really minor peanuts, IMHO. You might pick up a few "bad" habits, and might have to watch your pronunciation, but the native environment will outweigh it by far.

My experience is that as long as you are proficient (as in -- very comfortable) with either traditional or simplified characters, learning to read the other one is really easy. What is difficult is learning both at the same time and keeping them apart. Your mother probably learned to read simplified through exposure, and never actually learned it as a separate skill (most native speakers learn it this way). If you spend a month or two doing flashcards, you won't have such problems.

I'm not saying that Taipei is a better destination than Beijing, in fact, Beijing is probably a more exciting destination at this moment, but you probably want to make your decision based on how good the language program is. Many Beijingers also have an accent and slang which is not acceptable in all official situations.

[jbradfor]

the lack of standard Mandarin speakers

While I have only spend a total of near 3 weeks in China (not including Taiwan and Hong Kong), I found a lack of "standard" Mandarin speakers everywhere I went in China. [i did not go to the Harbin area, however.]

different terms for nouns and names.

Doesn't seem to be a big deal to me.... anyone disagree? There are not that many different names. It seems a bit like refusing to study in USA because you plan on working with UK companies and don't want to go around saying "elevator" or "truck" or "cell phone"....

My only warning if you do study in Taiwan and you are a guy, be careful that you don't end up sounding too girly. It is a common problem in general, in many countries and languages -- typically teachers are female, and if one gets a local girlfriend, one tends to imitate them -- but it's a bit worse in Taiwan as the Taiwan accent is a bit softer than a typical mainland accent.

[Full disclosure: I studied in Taiwan for three months, and loved it, so I'm rather biased towards studying in Taiwan. That said, the reasons I've heard for not studying there I've never found very compelling.]

[gato]

If you are planning for a career that requires interacting with mainlanders, it will be helpful to study in the mainland. In addition to language, you will be learning the local culture and social environment, no matter where you go.

[renzhe]

In addition to language, you will be learning the local culture and social environment, no matter where you go.

This is a very good and important point!

[wedge]

I've only spent significant amounts of time in Taipei and Beijing.

In my opinion, the typical Mandarin in Taipei sounds much, much closer to what I'm taught in school and what the CCTV anchors speak than the typical Mandarin in Beijing.

But your experience will also depend heavily on who you spend your time around. The 45 year old cab driver in both Taipei and Beijing will probably have very non-standard and perhaps unintelligible accents. The 25 year old college-educated young professional in both cities probably speaks quite standard Mandarin. In other words, I think who you decide to spend your time around will matter more to your experience than which city you choose.

2 more data points:

* I know a number of Taiwanese people work on the mainland and from what I've seen they have zero problems communicating.

* As an example of the closeness of the language, many Taiwanese TV shows are really popular on the mainland.

[Vincente]

In my opinion, the typical Mandarin in Taipei sounds much, much closer to what I'm taught in school and what the CCTV anchors speak than the typical Mandarin in Beijing.

Really!?? That said I shouldn't base my judgement on a one week trip to Taipei - I spoke mainly to waiters and street vendors during this time! Also, I guess National Taiwan University is the top institution in Taiwan so the standard of Mandarin is going to pretty high there amongst the students.

I'm guessing Taiwan's Mandarin is no different than say Shanghai, Nanjing and southern Mandarin etc.?

Because of the existence of Chinese dialects besides Mandarin, non-standard words from dialects can be thrown into formal conversations when Putonghua is used? I always wonder how my teacher (a Beijinger) knew what 'Chao you yu - frying a squid' meant.

[renzhe]

I'm guessing Taiwan's Mandarin is no different than say Shanghai, Nanjing and southern Mandarin etc.?

Of course they are different.

Mandarin spoken in southern regions often suffers from the lack of ch/zh/sh (which is the most obvious thing people first notice), but there are other differences between regions. Taiwanese Mandarin is heavily influenced by Taiwanese Hokkien, whereas Mandarin in Shanghai is influenced by Shanghainese.

But this is changing. I've met many people from Shanghai (around 30) who spoke very proper putonghua. The TV and the school system still enforces a very strong standard. In Taiwan, a lot of TV is made using Taiwanese-accented Mandarin, so it is reinforced, or at least this is my impression.

I don't think that the typical Mandarin in Taipei sounds closer to CCTV than the Mandarin in Beijing. But I've also met Taiwanese people who had very correct pronunciation, and no problems with retroflexes.

[Vincente]

Of course they are different

I meant in the sense that how characteristics of a non-Mandarin dialect is absorbed into Standard Mandarin within each southern province (or 'country' in the case of Taiwan).

[skylee]

And finally, would someone with a strong command of traditional characters really be able to read simplified characters with no problems? Because even my mother (from HK) has problems at times understanding it.

I have not spent any significant amount of time in Beijing or Taipei. I was born and bred in Hong Kong. I would say that I have a strong command of traditional characters. When I studied in CUHK reading textbooks in simplified characters gave me headaches. But eventually one will get used to them. Can I read them with no problems? Absolutely. Do I like them? Not at all. Can I write them? Well, I can't say that I know how to write all of them. And some of them, like 叶 and 卫, are just too unsettling to write (completely personal opinion) .

I think that people always talk about "Standard Mandarin" here and seem to forget that Taiwan has its own standard. The world is getting smaller and perhaps Taipei and Beijing are not that different after all. If you like Taipei more, why not? Kevin Rudd, former Australian PM, studied Chinese in Australia and he claims that he speaks it fluently.

[black dragon]

Only I know that Harbin has most standard Mandarin pronunciation in China, Yunnan and Sichuan and two of the worst place in China to study Mandarin as these two provinces are famous of anti-Mandarin-speaking, maybe I'm biased.

[wai ming]

Kevin Rudd' date=' former Australian PM, studied Chinese in Australia and he claims that he speaks it fluently. [/quote']

He apparently continued his Chinese studies at the Mandarin Training Center, National Taiwan Normal University.

[roddy]

Seriously, I think if you already have a grounding in the language and are aware of the differences, you'll be able to avoid any potential issues with a bit of extra work - make an effort to expose yourself to more mainland speakers, whatever. Choosing a city and a course you aren't necessarily happy with for the sake of differences in accent or vocabulary seems to me unwise. For all practical purposes the issue isn't where you learned Chinese, it's if you've learned Chinese.

[xiangruyimo]

You should also check out forumosa, the enormous Taiwan message board, for more takes on this question

ICLP, for what it's worth, was the original program that "fathered" IUP. It's been around longer, and its teachers are generally more experienced. (By this I mean, IUP rotates teachers after a few years, while ICLP has many teachers that have been teaching there for over ten years, if not several decades.) You have more choice for advanced classes at ICLP, as I'm sure you've seen on their website, and most of their materials have been developed in-house. (Whereupon many were exported to IUP.) And all the teachers are required to speak very standard Mandarin, without strong Taiwanese influence. They won't speak with erhua, but they all discriminate between shi/si, etc, in class. Personally, I think it's a great program!

[jake a]

Came across this board via a google search to help a friend of mine find more info about ICLP, but I'd just like to say the original poster (Vincente) is a tool for the way he titled the topic, and also for not following up after his questions were answered by many kind people.

 

I spent a year at ICLP and had one of the best years of my life. The teachers were superb and my mandarin improved immensely. 

As far as learning traditional characters vs simplified goes, traditional may be more work to learn, but is also far more rewarding. With all the resources we have now via smartphones and the internet, it is not too hard to pick up simplified after studying traditional.

 

Also because the cross straight communications between Taiwan and China have increased significantly in the last 10-15 years politically, economically and socially, both sides are much more aware of each others accents, slang, and unique terminologies.

 

Either country and program will provide a great experience and education. Oftentimes, the people who are way too concerned about the small details especially in an elitist way are the people with Mandarin skills so crappy with the thickest American accents, it wouldn't matter what dialectical nuances and influences they were surrounded by to begin with.

[mister4to1]

I posted a review here:
http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/50394-an-honest-review-of-iclp-experienced-self-study-learners-beware/

 

I did not have a great time there - coming from someone who was trying to learn the maximum Mandarin possible. Many people choose to go there to learn the most in the shortest amount of time... but the fact that it's a group class (even though it's 4 people) makes this always pale in comparison to one on one classes.