Chinese Language/Dialects Grammar

[lockdoc]

I have noticed (and I am pretty confused about all this) that there are many different language and also dialects ins Chinese.

As far as I have understood there are （based on wikipedia) 9 languages and each one has many dialects.

1. Gan - 赣语/贛語

2. Guan (Mandarin) - 官话/官話

3. Hui - 徽語

4. Jin - 晋语/晉語

5. Kejia (Hakka) - 客家話

6. Min - 閩語/闽语

7. Wu - 吴语/吳語

8. Xiang - 湘语/湘語/湖南话/湖南話

9. Yue - 粵語/粤语

My Questions now are:

1.) Although those people from different language might not understand each other, but if they write down the sentence on a piece of paper, would the others be able to fully understand it?

2.) Is the grammar (position of words) and the meaning of characters equal in every language?

3.) Is the only difference the pronunciation?

Thank you

[liuzhou]

There are a lot more than nine languages spoken in China. The city in which I live features the local version of Putonghua, Cantonese, two distinct, and mutually unintelligible dialects of Zhuang, Dong, Miao and others.

Ethnologue lists 293 languages in China, although it is arguable some of these are dialects rather than languages (the language v. dialect argument is never resolved.)

Of the main Sinitic languages, loosely referred to as "Chinese",. generally speaking, yes people understand the written language even if they cannot understand each other's spoken dialects.

There are sometimes minor grammar differences, but the main difference is pronunciation.

[Daan]

There are huge lexical and syntactical differences between the different Sinitic languages. If you know Mandarin, just take a look at the Wikipedia page on Cantonese grammar to get an idea of the grammatical differences

If speakers of Cantonese write down a sentence on a piece of paper, speakers of other Sinitic languages will only be able to understand them completely if the sentences are written in Modern Standard Mandarin, which is the written language used all across China, even in Hong Kong. However, as you can see in the Wikipedia article, you can also use Chinese characters to write in Cantonese; and this native speakers of Mandarin may have a bit of trouble with.

[renzhe]

I have noticed (and I am pretty confused about all this) that there are many different language and also dialects ins Chinese.

As far as I have understood there are （based on wikipedia) 9 languages and each one has many dialects.

Be careful. The nine languages you list are all Chinese (Sinitic) languages, often called dialects of Chinese, or regionalects. They are not mutually intelligible, but are all very closely related and have developed from Middle Chinese.

There are also many non-Sinitic languages in China, like liuzhou pointed out. Stuff like Mongolian, Miao, different Turkic languages, Tibetan, and hundreds of others. They have almost nothing to do with Chinese.

In terms of other questions:

1.) Although those people from different language might not understand each other, but if they write down the sentence on a piece of paper, would the others be able to fully understand it?

Like Daan said, yes and no. The vast majority of dialects are never written, only spoken. Pretty much everybody in China only uses vernacular Mandarin for writing, regardless of what they speak at home. So pretty much anything written can be understand by any literate Chinese. But this is because they all write using the vocabulary and grammar of Mandarin.

When a dialect is actually written, which happens with Cantonese in some contexts, and very rarely with Shanghainese, speakers of other dialects can usually get a good idea of what's written, but not necessarily everything. Especially since dialects often use special characters to write certain words, characters which do not exist in other dialects.

2.) Is the grammar (position of words) and the meaning of characters equal in every language?

No, it can be quite different, the grammar is different, and you often use different combinations of characters for the same word. In Shanghainese, "I" is 吾 and not 我 , "you" is 哝 instead of 你, and "to like" is not 喜欢 but 欢喜. 欢喜 is also a word in Mandarin, but it has a different meaning. In spoken language, 阿啦 is often used instead of 吾. So even very simple phrases can be quite different, also due to the vocabulary, not only pronunciation.

3.) Is the only difference the pronunciation?

No. Think of them as Romance languages: Portuguese, Spanish, French and Italian. It's not only the pronunciation that is different, you also have to learn the grammar and vocabulary of the language. Many things are quite similar though, which makes it easier for native speakers to learn other related languages.

[Hofmann]

Some people distinguish language from dialect by saying that different dialects are mutually intelligible and different languages are not. However, one runs into problems when, for example, person A can understand person B, and person B can understand person C, but person A can't understand person C. Therefore linguists do not distinguish between language and dialect. They call them all varieties.

1.) Although those people from different language might not understand each other, but if they write down the sentence on a piece of paper, would the others be able to fully understand it?

Maybe, for the same reason why someone who only learned French can understand a lot of written Spanish. The varieties are related and share many cognates. However, this ability is extinguished when one person writes in a script that the other person can't read.

2.) Is the grammar (position of words) and the meaning of characters equal in every language?

No. A grammar example would be in Mandarin, where "多吃一點 (more eat a bit)" is acceptable and preferred to "吃多一點 (eat more a bit)." In Cantonese, "食多一尐 (eat more a bit)" is the only legal way. A meaning example is the character 走, which means "walk" in Mandarin and "run" in Cantonese.

3.) Is the only difference the pronunciation?

No.

[alkahez]

The differences are perplexing if you are a beginner or new to the Chinese language. I believe it can be perplexing even for the Chinese themselves.

Like liuzhou mentioned, whether some of them are languages or dialects are debatable. It also depends on how much you comprehend another Chinese language like for example Mandarin / Cantonese. From one Chinese language you may have some ideas of the meaning. Then you might say it's a dialect.

1.)Although those people from different language might not understand each other, but if they write down the sentence on a piece of paper, would the others be able to fully understand it?

May be (provided the person can read what's written).

However, I have a book from Fuzhou (Min). Many of the scripts are much similar to general Chinese but reading it, the meanings are unclear. The sentence structures don't seem like standard modern writing. I'm not sure whether it is due to the year it was written (1970s). I extracted a paragraph and asked a friend who is proficient in Mandarin and he couldn't quite understand the meaning either. I can't explain that since I only know basic Chinese.

2.) Is the grammar (position of words) and the meaning of characters equal in every language?

Not necessary.

E.g. 我看不到。(wo kan bu dao) I've often heard my grandma (who was illiterate and speaks colloquially) said in Fuzhou (Min) ngoi miae kan diok (Written 我不看到?)

3.) Is the only difference the pronunciation?

Not necessary.

對不起 （Traditional, dui bu qi (Mandarin). In Cantonese, in conversation people rarely say dui but hei (unless pronounce direct from script). They say "dui mm ju".

看著他（Mand., kan zhe ta) - to 'look at him' in reading is pronounced as "hon jyu (juok) ta" (Cant.) but in speaking people normally say "tai jyu hoey" (Cant.) to mean see or watch over him.

These are just some examples.

[stelingo]

Renzhe wrote 'In Shanghainese, "I" is 吾 and not 我 , "you" is 哝 instead of 你, and "to like" is not 喜欢 but 欢喜.'

This is something I can't get my head around. Since Hanzi represents meaning and not sounds like an alphabet why are certain words represented by different characters in some varieties of Chinese?

(And can someone please tell me how I can quote a post on here?)

[gato]

test

[Oops. Where's the delete button?]

[renzhe]

This is something I can't get my head around. Since Hanzi represents meaning and not sounds like an alphabet why are certain words represented by different characters in some varieties of Chinese?

This is wrong. Hanzi represent sound AND meaning.

Also, both 吾 and 我 mean "I". It's just that the use of 吾 has fallen out of use in modern Mandarin and sounds very archaic, while Shanghainese has continued using it. There are many examples. There are many different ways to say "no", because Chinese has a very long written history. Different dialects settled on different words, which are most commonly used. You can say "thou" in English, but people will look at you as if you were stupid. The word is not used anymore, although Germans use it (and pronounce it "du").

Think of it this way. German and English are closely related. Germans use the word "Fleisch" to mean meat. The same word is pronounced "flesh" in English, but has a slightly different meaning. In German, you go to the butcher to buy "Fleisch", but in English you don't go and buy "flesh".

Similarly, in German, a butcher is called "Schlachter". The equivalent English word is "slayer". But you wouldn't say that you are going to the "slayer" to buy "flesh", because modern English has different words for these things.

Same with Chinese dialects.

[lockdoc]

@renzhe

As I am a native German I got stuck on this one:

"You can say "thou" in English, but people will look at you as if you were stupid. The word is not used anymore, although Germans use it (and pronounce it "du")."

I first was confused and thought it is a different writing style of the word "though", but I looked it up and the meaning is "you" [2nd person singular].

BUT, I have never heard anybody (especially Germans xD) use this variant of "you".

Sorry for being off-topic, but could you write an example sentence please.

[xiaocai]

I think he meant that the German word related "thou" in English is "du".

[renzhe]

"Thou" is the old English word for "you". It is a cognate of German "du". "Thou" in English and "du" in German developed from the OId High German "dū", which most likely took it from Latin "tu". "Thou" and "du" are essentially the same word, separated by a few centuries of independent language development, so they are pronounced differently.

Germans say "du", English same "thou" and Danish say "du", but it is all the same word with the same meaning.

So one would expect English people to use "thou" for second person singular, but at some point, the language switched to "you" instead. The word "thou" still exists, but is not used other than in poetry, and you would sound silly if you used it today.

Same with Chinese languages (or dialects) such as Wu/Shanghainese and Mandarin. You can still say 吾 in Mandarin, the word exists, but people will likely not understand you because people haven't spoken like that for centuries. Shanghainese happily uses 吾 in formal occasions, and in informal occasions they use 阿啦 , which came from who-knows-where. Mandarin ended up using 我. Remember that both dialects had many centuries of mostly independent development, so both of them have changed a lot since diverging from Middle Chinese.

Think of Chinese dialects as different languages, like German and Dutch, and it will make more sense.

[stelingo]

ok, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation Renzhe.