Meaning of first two strokes in 免 or 鱼

[jadeblomma]

Does anyone know what the very first two strokes mean in for example 免 or 鱼 , i.e. does this component in itself has a meaning? Also, is it a variant of another component (you know how 'heart' for instance can be written in two different ways, depending on whether it's on it's own or beneath another component, or to the left)?

[來撒母耳]

I'm curious about this too, it's not listed as a radical on MDBG, though I have heard that it's like a roof, though I know the roof radical is 宀 ... So I don't know, It's also in 你 which is subdivided by mdbg into 亻 and 尔 。

[Glenn]

Heisig gives its meaning as "bound up", saying it's an abbreviated form of 勹. I'm not sure how etymologically accurate that is. zhongwen.com doesn't list any of the characters with this abbreviated form under 勹, and for 魚 and 兔 it says they're both pictographs. For 免 is says it's a rabbit that's gotten away, represented by the missing dot. For 負 it says it's a person working for shell money. It doesn't seem to appear in many other characters that don't have the above in them, though. 你 it basically says is a variation of 伱, where the top part is 人 (again). I don't know how much this helps you.

[aristotle1990]

魚 and 兔 (and 免) are simple pictographs. That thing on top is just a stylized depiction of a head. See the evolution of 魚, for example, here.

[Gharial]

In the CASS 189 simplified radical system, it's treated as a variant of 刀, but this would seem just an organizationally-convenient resemblance of form than anything particularly meaning-based. Etymologically-mnemonically it is in addition to 'tied up' sometimes also glossed as 'kneeling man', but as aristotle1990 says it can also be pictographically viewed as a head when appropriate.

In my 'Guide to simplified radicals' (see thread of that name, in the Reading and Writing Skills forum) I note two other radical-characters besides 鱼 that "expand downwards" from that top component: 欠 and 角 (though in the traditional Kangxi radical system there are a few more, for example 色).

You won't actually find it as a listed (or certainly, not copiable-pasteable) radical anywhere - I had to take a screen capture and insert a small jpeg into Word to get it to display. Sometimes people appear to make do with something very similar if not identical to the Japanese katakana symbol for 'ku' ( ク ) however. See for example the radical chart in the Oxford/CP Concise E-C/C-E, or radical 29 in the '187 Radicals Scheme' chart here: http://dylansung.tripod.com/flux/radscheme.htm

[imron]

You won't actually find it as a listed (or certainly, not copiable-pasteable) radical anywhere

Try this ⺈

(see also here).

[Gharial]

Ooh, thanks, Imron! The first one you've given would certainly do I think, and has the advantage that it is actual font and thus moves itself as other stuff is typed around it, and can be highlighted and resized etc along with everything else in a document. Can I ask where you got it?

The (Edit: oops just the left-hand of the!) Unicode one however is a gif, so is little different from a screen capture, in that is has to be resized, painstakingly positioned etc.

[imron]

The unicode page also has the character for copying - in the box that says "Your Browser". That's where I copied it from.

As for how I found it, I went to the Unicode Character Code Charts page and downloaded the chart called CJK Radicals Supplement.

1 minute of hunting through the document revealed the radical, but unfortunately the PDF reader I was using didn't give me the option to copy it, so I did a manual lookup in the Unihan database based on its code point and then copied it from that page.

[Gharial]

Heh, thanks again, Imron. I should probably be more familiar by now with Unicode and the like, but thankfully the bits of "unobtainable" font are few enough that I've always managed to find a way to work around 'em! But your tips will sure help save others that extra bit of work!

[Gharial]

Quick question, Imron (or whoever else might like to reply!): does the 2e97 glyph display properly in the "Your Browser" box (i.e. with your computer and settings) at Unicode? Here: http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=2e97

I can see the left-hand "The Unicode Standard" box's glyph fine, but in the "Your Browser" box all I get is that irritating blank square containing:

2E

97

The previous glyph (that you posted, Imron), 2e88, displays fine for me in both boxes, for what it's worth.

These sort of questions never seem to get fully resolved (unless one is an IT genius), and one sometimes wonders if there is a secret plot to drive students of Chinese more mad than they were already! So I guess what I'm asking is, what do I quite need to do to get fiddly little items like this to actually display, copy, paste etc on my PC. (99.99% of CJK stuff displays just fine!).

[imron]

Works fine for me. It's probably an issue with the font you've got (or rather haven't got). There is a CJK font floating around with tens of thousands of glyphs. I forget what it's called, but that's the one you'll want.

[Gharial]

Thanks Imron! Yes, that's probably it. If you remember what it's called and where you got it (I'm assuming it's something you'd download), please post the info here, though I'll of course have a hunt myself and see what I can find!

The main reason I was asking about this stuff again is that I want to write up better redirects than those provided in the Oxford/CP chart in post #16 ( http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/31003-guide-to-simplified-radicals/page__view__findpost__p__255354 ) of my "Guide to Simplified Radicals" thread.

[Gharial]

Actually, I'm wondering if it's something to do with the Unicode fonts themselves; that is, I can input in Micosoft IME, and copy, paste, and display e.g. the character 穴 no problem, but the Unicode page ( http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=2f73 ) doesn't show anything in the "Your Browser" box other than again a blank square:

2F

73

[jbradfor]

It may have something to do with which font your browser is selecting to use.

[Gharial]

Maybe, Jbradfor, but why would my browser (Firefox) be letting me see 穴 (I mean as actually copiable-pastable font rather than embedded gif) on every other webpage but Unicode's? It just doesn't make sense (if Unicode is meant to be some sort of overarching, soothe-all-ills balm). But being in many respects an IT illiterate, I'm probably talking completely out of my hat (gourd? LOL) here!

[jbradfor]

Not sure. I can think of two things to check, not sure if either would help.

At least in firefox, you can control whether the web page can set the font to use. If the unihan page is setting a font, and that font doesn't support that character, that might cause it. In firefox, go to edit->preferences->content, and near "fonts&colors" click on "advanced".

Also, at least in firefox, you can have different fonts depending on the language. And it has different settings for Simplified Chinese, Traditional Chinese (Taiwan), and Traditional Chinese (Hong Kong).

[Hofmann]

On those two characters it's just part of the pictogram. In other cases, 刀 can become it, such as in 解, 絕, 召.

[imron]

the character 穴 no problem, but the Unicode page ( http://www.unicode.o...?codepoint=2f73 ) doesn't show anything in the "Your Browser" box other than again a blank square:

That's strange, because 穴 is not really an uncommon character. I would do as jbradford suggests and try changing the default font of your browser for Chinese characters.