Serious Study

[Chief123]

I've made a lot of progress in my Mandarin but the more I learn the more I recognize I need to learn. I've lived in Taiwan now for about 9 months. There are no schools nearby but I am married to a local girl who currently, luckily, doesn't have much interest in learning English.

I need to ramp it up big time. I've been focusing on speaking and listening (survival) and can only recognize a few characters. I really need to get serious about this - my lacks are starting to show and in some cases strain my relationships a bit. I've written before about being totally overwhelmed at learning new things like flushing the toilet, changing the oil, going to the doctor, buying a car, etc. Those are all still issues (and many many more) I'm still working on. Sometimes I learn all about changing the oil but then I forget how to say something basic.

What would a "serious" study schedule look like to you and what would it consist of?

Mark

[T-revor]

First off, you're in a great position. But you've got to start out with a framework. Start with a textbook or an online course (there are plenty mentioned on this site -- find one that suits you). You will learn things that you'll think are completely useless and you'll feel like you're not learning anything -- this will be a recurring theme in your language study. Just keep studying. The beauty of living in Taiwan is that as you study, you'll start hearing things and saying to yourself, "Hey, that grammar structure is something I've been studying this week." The combination of "academic" study and re-enforcement in a real-life situations is really invaluable. You'll begin learning and retaining quickly.

A serious study would be any consistent one. Don't overdo it if you'll risk burning out. An hour or so every day -- but i really mean every day -- will do wonders over a year's time. Choose lots of different learning activities -- watching TV, listening to radio/podcasts, textbook vocab and grammar, speaking with your wife...

The most beautiful thing about learning a new language is suddenly realizing that you can think and speak in that language with little effort and no translation in your head. That just comes through constant and consistent study an use. But you can't just study. And you can't just use. It's got to be together.

I've also learned that while you're learning, a smile and some clever pantomiming can go a long way toward making yourself understood.

If you're really serious, there's a really good blog I like - http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com. Check it out.

Best of luck!

[valikor]

This is a broad question, and the answer obviously entirely depends on your goals, and how quickly you want to achieve them. But, I would say a few things:

1) 1 hour a day will certainly do a lot for your Chinese if you stick with it, but seeing that you're living in Taiwan, I would view this as a bit low. Maybe 2-3 hours a day would be better.

2) As many here will recommend, using a Spaced Repitition Program like Anki will help give some structure to your vocab study, motivate you, and pay off in the long run. Personally, while it might not be the best, I've been a person who just loves vocab lists. It's not the best method, but it feels good to visually see your progess as you knock out list after list, over the months/years.

2.5) Consider focusing first on recognition, before worrying about writing by hand (two separate skills). After I gave up practicing writing every day, my reading abilities began to improve much more quickly. This *rarely* gives me any problems whatsoever. But learning to write by hand is good, too.

3) Get a good textbook. NPCR is okay. There are others. Since you're in Taiwan, you could aim to finish each level in 1-2 months. Having a teacher or someone to review it with you might help you stick with it in the long term.

4) Don't rely on your wife when it comes to improving speaking. I thought having a Chinese girlfriend would do wonders for my Chinese. And I have improved a lot, it's true. But I feel would have been much better served finding a few language partners to do structured langauge practice a few times a week for the past year.

Good luck.

David

[renzhe]

You are living in Taiwan, you are married to a Taiwanese girl, and you are serious about learning the language.

So learn how to read. I mean, you won't get around it and if you delay it for 5 years, this only mean that you'll be suffering for the next 5 years. Studying without reading is not serious study. Get Anki (it's free to download and has good decks with Chinese vocabulary) and use it daily until you can read 2000-3000 characters and know about 5000 words. It's easier to remember words if you see them written, and review them regularly. Just hearing them over and over and hoping for them to stick is not enough.

Also, follow a textbook. You have a good basis, so you should make good progress on your own. NPCR is good, and it has a traditional character version (this is most likely what you want). But any decent textbook that covers grammar, vocabulary and culture is good.

[jbradfor]

To respectfully disagree with renzhe, I'm at a loss at how a textbook will help you. You are picking up the culture on your own far better than a textbook could teach you, ask your wife to correct your grammar, and you have lots of conversation practice.

Otherwise, I agree with the rest of renzhe's post. 6 months of 1 hour/day of SRS practice (split into 2-3 sessions per day), and you'll have the vocabulary you need to start reading native material. You can join us in reading comics and/or books.

[renzhe]

He is picking up random bits and pieces left and right. A textbook will ensure that he is not missing any really important bits and pieces. With his level, he can work through beginner and intermediate textbooks relatively quickly and in the worst case, it will help him round up his knowledge.

It will also explain grammatical concepts in a way that is designed for a language learner. I don't think that his wife is a trained language teacher.

[jbradfor]

So there you have it, two different opinions. When it comes to reading, who are you going to believe, someone who struggles reading comics aimed at kids, or someone planning on taking on 水浒传?

If you do pick a textbook, at least it answers one question: what vocab list to study. You can learn the words, and then when you feel you know most of them, plow through the textbook for some reinforcement. If you do take this approach, please report back what you thought.

don't think that his wife is a trained language teacher.

Very true. But his wife will be very sensitive to errors. I find the hardest part of grammar is not in trying to learn the rules, but rather realizing when I say it wrong, and knowing the correct way.

[renzhe]

I don't think that there are any downsides to getting a textbook (other than the price). Either you already know all the stuff in it, which means that you will go through it quickly and will feel better knowing that you're not missing anything important, or you discover gaping holes in your knowledge, which means that it's time to learn them.

I found that getting through a textbook was far more effective than learning casually without direction with the help of native speakers. Of course, everyone is different, but I think that structure helps in general.

Textbooks are also good for giving good basic grammar rules in terms foreigners can understand. Native speakers are very useful, but very few can answer questions like "why do you need 了 here but not there?" You can learn all this through tons of exposure and passive osmosis, but I don't think that it's the fastest way.

[gato]

But his wife will be very sensitive to errors. I find the hardest part of grammar is not in trying to learn the rules, but rather realizing when I say it wrong, and knowing the correct way.

He's going to annoy the heck out of his wife if he keeps asking her questions about grammar.

[jbradfor]

I said correct his grammar, not ask her questions about it. Big difference.

[anonymoose]

How did you get to be married in the first place if you don't speak Chinese and (presumably, judging from your post) she doesn't speak English?

[gato]

Body language.

[mfgillia]

You'll have some decisions to make depending on what your goals are. The first one will be to decide what you want to first focus on - speaking and listening in a structure manner or also do reading and writing at the same time.

There are different schools of thought on this issue. This particular forum seems skewed heavily towards literacy as a means to achieve fluency. Others will strongly disagree. In the long run, its certainly nice to read characters and can help you move from advance to very advanced.

However, in the short run its probably nice to be able to have meaningful conversations with your wife and her family even more so if the relationship is showing strains due to the usual communication issues. In which case, delaying the reading and writing of characters is probably a sound idea.

Otherwise, forcing yourself to be able to read and write each word you learn will leave you with less time to become functionally conversational in a given area. Later, you will be able to much more quickly use flashcards to associate characters with the words you already know how to use. With this skill and the pinyin or zhuyin you already know, you can type anything you want on a computer.

Following one of the popular textbook series with a trained, dedicated tutor is also a good way to get a very structured approach and the flexibility to focus on your goals assuming you can afford the $350 to $450 nt per hour. I wouldn't recommend using LE partners initially as they will slow you down and likely be unable to teach you effectively. Plus, you'll have to spend at least half of your time working on their English.

Many of us have not been blessed with having a girlfriend that can become the main teacher to a basic level Mandarin student. Even if they have the skill, they most likely don't have the patience after the initial honeymoon phase. Regarding Taiwanese wives, I have yet to hear of any stories where one successfully used primarily their wife to go from basic to advance levels. I know a few that have tried and risked magically transforming the wife into an ex-wife. :unsure:

[gato]

This particular forum seems skewed heavily towards literacy as a means to achieve fluency. forcing yourself to be able to read and write each word you learn will leave you with less time to become functionally conversational in a given area.

Most people here support the read first and write later (or never) approach.

[mfgillia]

How did you get to be married in the first place if you don't speak Chinese and (presumably, judging from your post) she doesn't speak English?

Was wondering about that as well.

Body language.

And the winner is...

[mfgillia]

Most people here support the read first and write later (or never) approach.

Yes they certainly do. Other Chinese language forums and professors less so.

At times, many here seem singularly focused on the route memorization of as many characters as humanly possible from the very beginning. Not quite sure how one becomes truly conversational doing that but it seems to have worked for some.

There are even a few people here that strongly believe one simply can not become functionally fluent without obtaining a high level of literacy.

[Chief123]

How did you get to be married in the first place if you don't speak Chinese and (presumably, judging from your post) she doesn't speak English?

Long story dating back to 1988.

When we first got back in contact, she spoke Mandarin almost exclusively and I spoke English almost exclusively but we both understood each other. This was over a period of about 10 months. No body language involved ;) - it was Skype for 2-5 hours every day. Slowly but surely I started speaking Chinese picking back up what I learned back in the 1988 time frame.

Since then we've gotten married, I've moved to Taiwan, etc. Most days I speak exclusively Mandarin. There are a couple friends and a couple leeches and sometimes I get so frustrated trying to have a "discussion/argument" that I revert to English with the wife but other than that it's all Mandarin.

I teach classes in church and regularly give talks in front of a group of people. I deal regularly with our children, my in-laws, talk on the phone, order food, buy things, etc.

So I wouldn't say I don't speak Chinese but I would say it's high time to take it up a notch or 3. Basically I'm at the overwhelm/crazy point where I know it well enough to understand most, explain (round about) most of what I need or want, live, communicate, etc. but nowhere close to where I need or want to be.

Mark

[anonymoose]

Well, there are obviously lots of things you can do to build on your Chinese, but here's one thing I found to be quite useful since coming to China:

Carry a small notebook and a pencil wherever you go. Every time you come across a new word, or an interesting or useful phrase, note it down. If need be, get someone else to help you write it down. When you get back home, copy it into a file and keep it for reviewing. Personally I found this method to be much more fruitful than just trying to remember arbitrary lists of vocabulary, because when you come across something in real life, it has more significance to you, is thus easier to remember, and is more likely to be useful to you again in the future.

In addition to this, every time there is something you want to say in Chinese, but find that you can't, then write that down as well. When you have the chance, you can try to figure it out at your leisure, or even ask here for help. That is what I did many times. The only way you will improve your Chinese is to try to expand on what you already know.

I should also just stress again that this method is good, not just for isolated words, but entire phrases and sentence patterns. Words are useful, but if you really want to become a competent speaker, you need to know how to put them together into complete phrases.

[Chief123]

I'm absorbing this more personalized information you've provided as well as doing some other quick reading so I can formulate my plan.

Regarding the wife - I agree with most of the sentiments here. Just this morning I asked her why she doesn't correct me more often and she pointed out that when it's obvious she does (and she does but it is fairly rare) and then said that there's not a lot to be corrected.

I firmly don't believe that and told her so. But she insisted that what she said is true. She is a very "direct" person and if she thinks you are wrong, most times you'll fairly quickly know. So this insistence that there is not a problem but that I'm a pessimist and letting myself get overwhelmed goes directly against her personality if there really was a problem. Point is she would honestly tell me.

Her best suggestion was to read the children's newspaper everyday as a way to fill in vocabulary gaps, learn grammar in its natural usage, get more used to characters, etc. The newspaper has characters with BoPoMoFo (which I can read) and is used by all or most Taiwan school children.

She's also suggested in the past to use the workbooks/textbooks school children use to learn how to write/learn characters. I've got them up through the 2nd grade.

I want/need to learn to write - if for no other reason than my life needs it. For example teaching my class is more difficult when I can't write on the board. I've been able to help our 6 year old read and understand BoPoMoFo but now she's learning characters and so she needs some help in that area too. So I need to do this while I'm improving my listening and speaking skills which are more important right now if I have to choose.

Thoughts on her approach to fill in the gaps?

Thanks for your help.

Mark

[anonymoose]

Lots of people suggest using children's books to practice, and I myself did this at one stage. However, I feel that this is actually not the best idea, because many children's stories use very flowery language that is not very frequently used in real life. I mean, if you're interested in that, then it's OK, but if your main objective is to improve your practical Chinese, then I would suggest you use everyday materials such as newspapers and magazines, because these contain the kinds of topics you are more likely to encounter in daily life anyway, and I think in many cases they would actually be easier to read than children's books.

Another tip is that when you learn new vocabulary or new sentence structures, try to consciously use them as much as possible, even to the extent where you will start a topic of conversation or steer the conversation just so you can slip in your newly acquired knowledge. It may make you seem slightly mental if you suddenly just say, "Have you seen a flying saucer?" or something random like that, but at the end of the day, you'll only be able to improve your Chinese if you can actually put it into practice.

Oh, and also, I think you should let your wife teach your kids Chinese and concentrate on teaching them English yourself.