Serious Study

[gato]

Her best suggestion was to read the children's newspaper everyday as a way to fill in vocabulary gaps, learn grammar in its natural usage, get more used to characters, etc. The newspaper has characters with BoPoMoFo (which I can read) and is used by all or most Taiwan school children.

She's also suggested in the past to use the workbooks/textbooks school children use to learn how to write/learn characters. I've got them up through the 2nd grade.

Since you can already speak Chinese fairly fluently, I think you could ramp up your character knowledge quickly by using flashcards. A good set of flashcards to start with is the HSK vocab list. They are designed for the mainland exam, but the basic vocab isn't that different between Taiwan and mainland (just ignore the Commie words).

You can find the flashcards in different format here, including text format and the format for the flashcard program Mnemosyne

http://www.hskflashcards.com

You can convert the cards to traditional character by using a program like NJStar (or you can ask your wife for help):

http://www.njstar.com/cms/njstar-chinese-word-processor

NJStar Chinese word processor

EDIT: I just noticed that the HSK flashcard files from the site above already include both traditional and simplified characters.

[renzhe]

So I wouldn't say I don't speak Chinese but I would say it's high time to take it up a notch or 3. Basically I'm at the overwhelm/crazy point where I know it well enough to understand most, explain (round about) most of what I need or want, live, communicate, etc. but nowhere close to where I need or want to be.

Sounds like a plateau. IMHO, the best approach is to make clear and measurable goals, devise a study plan to reach those goals, and then stick to it, for a year or more if necessary.

It really sounds like reading is what you desperately need. Many people get stuck at higher intermediate levels because they cannot read, and it's hard to build (and retain) vocabulary without having means to read it or write it down.

So I'd still recommend building basic 2000 characters using computer assistance, like Anki or Skritter. It's work, but you can do it with moderate effort spread over two years. It's important to keep reviewing regularly, and read as much as you can on top of it, and in 1-2 years (given that you already have a decent spoken vocabulary), you're done.

[Chief123]

Renzhe, does my wife's suggestion of reading the children's newspaper with Zhuyin fit the bill to start?

It really sounds like reading is what you desperately need. Many people get stuck at higher intermediate levels because they cannot read, and it's hard to build (and retain) vocabulary without having means to read it or write it down.

So I'd still recommend building basic 2000 characters using computer assistance, like Anki or Skritter. It's work, but you can do it with moderate effort spread over two years. It's important to keep reviewing regularly, and read as much as you can on top of it, and in 1-2 years (given that you already have a decent spoken vocabulary), you're done.

Anonymoose, this is a weekly "newspaper" she suggested - characters with Zhuyin. Along with "fun" stories and comics it has "practical" stories like all about Russia, tigers, Chinese culture and history, parts of the body, etc. as well as things like character "games" (choose the right character) or fill in the blank.

I think they have a daily newpaper with real news too.

Does the weekly sound like it would fit your suggestion?

Lots of people suggest using children's books to practice, and I myself did this at one stage. However, I feel that this is actually not the best idea, because many children's stories use very flowery language that is not very frequently used in real life. I mean, if you're interested in that, then it's OK, but if your main objective is to improve your practical Chinese, then I would suggest you use everyday materials such as newspapers and magazines, because these contain the kinds of topics you are more likely to encounter in daily life anyway, and I think in many cases they would actually be easier to read than children's books.

[renzhe]

Stuff for children is OK (I started with comics), but do plan to move away from them as soon as it's feasible.

[Chief123]

Stuff for children is OK (I started with comics), but do plan to move away from them as soon as it's feasible.

Are you talking about the Zhuyin based children's stuff? In Taiwan almost all children's reading material has Zhuyin I think up to the 3rd or 4th grade.

Thanks for your help.

[renzhe]

In general, I'd recommend moving towards stuff for adults as soon as you can. Stuff for children (with or without zhuyin) is OK, but you probably don't want to be reading this stuff for 4 years.

For me, it went like this: Doraemon -> Ranma 1/2 -> Jin Yong.

The last jump was quite vicious, and it would have been better to put some easier literature in between, like Ba Jin. But it was doable. Painful at the time, but I'm glad I did it.

[imron]

In general, I'd recommend moving towards stuff for adults as soon as you can.

I'd agree with this. I find material aimed at children is difficult to hold my interest.

As gato mentioned, because you already know Chinese, it will be easier to learn characters than it would for someone starting completely fresh, so once you get started I imagine you'll find yourself making fast progress.

[langxia]

Lots of people suggest using children's books to practice, and I myself did this at one stage. However, I feel that this is actually not the best idea, because many children's stories use very flowery language that is not very frequently used in real life. I mean, if you're interested in that, then it's OK, but if your main objective is to improve your practical Chinese, then I would suggest you use everyday materials such as newspapers and magazines, because these contain the kinds of topics you are more likely to encounter in daily life anyway, and I think in many cases they would actually be easier to read than children's books.

You can also read blogs, I have lately started to read friends blogs and found that it is useful resource to learn. The style might not be as good as a newspaper or magazines, but it will be a style people use in their daily life. If you are using QQ you will probably have some friends that blog on there.

[hahagirl]

Where I live in NYC, I am living in a place that can be called China/Korea Town. I'm Korean so I already know Korean and so I am trying to learn more Chinese to blend in with my community. I'm better learning useful phrases because I can break it down later. This site: http://www.learnchineseez.com/lessons/mandarin/ really helps a lot and clarifies things. Plus, there is audio! They also teach you different Chinese characters so I think it kills two birds with one stone. You should really check it out. It's a great site.

[yellowpower]

Hi

have you surfed other taiwan forums like Formosa or Tealit for info about free Mandarin classes for spouses of Taiwanese nationals? Not sure if the program still exists, but remember older posts somewhere about foreign nationals married to Taiwanese and living there, get some sort of free Mandarin classes.

If not, you should ask your wife or friend who can speak Mandarin to go down with you to a local govt social services agency for info.

Learning any new language is difficult but the more you listen and get used to the sounds, after a while things will click. Better to focus on practical vocabulary and simple phrases and build from there.

Other problem is that there are not many CSL books in Taiwan for foreigners. You may have to work backwards,learn simplified first as more materials available then pick up traditional script later.

[Areckx]

keep at it every day seems to be the common sense, and I'm adding my vote for it. I remember first ripping out my arms from their sockets trying to get a handle of the writing system when I was first learning Japanese when I was 13 or 14(10 years ago) and I gave up for awhile and you know what happened? I didn't improve at all. I just kept listening to music and watching anime with English subtitles. My English improved about 100-fold, I'll tell you that!

About 2 years ago I gave the writing system another go, and kept at it every single day. I did everything you've heard of on the internet: I wrote each new character down in my notebook at LEAST 50 times in order to drill those basic building blocks in, and then after they started to repeat themselves and I felt like I was just mindlessly writing out characters, I slowed down on that and started reading real text. (For Japanese this means manga with furigana(readings written to the side of kanji[hanxi]), because reading books and newspapers without full kanji recognition and readings is extremely skim-heavy, and makes you feel reallllly stupid)

Reading real material has been the best learning tool for me, at least with Japanese(at this point) and starting Mandarin, I am glad I already have a firm grasp on the idea behind the hanxi. They are used a LOT differently and there is a lot of new vocabulary for me to learn, but I am confident in my skills as a language learner today that if I continue going the course, things will just start to make sense, you know?

To tell you the truth, for me, the best tool for me to learn the patterns of speech and character recognition is watching dramas or variety/singing shows on tv. The shows ALWAYS have Chinese subtitles, so you can pretty much get in the reading every time you watch.

Again, I remember what it was like when you're first learning the characters. Japanese uses traditional characters, so I totally understand how this can seem IMPOSSIBLE at first try, but keep at it, they start to make sense by second nature after about six months to a year.

And really, you should make an attempt everyday to read a newspaper or online article or book/comic or SOMETHING in Chinese every single day, if not to read, then to gauge your progress. If you can go through an article with relative ease then it's time to start reading heavy texts. (And you'll start getting to the point where you're actually critiquing the language after awhile...I'm still not quite there with Japanese but I definitely got to the point where I got picky about what I read and watch/listen to. With Chinese I am at the very beginning so I can't afford to be picky.

I plan on becoming an interpreter and translator, so I will definitely have to keep at it and continue to challenge myself. I will, of course, have to live in Taiwan(sounds like my kind of country, plus there may be a Japanese community? I don't know...) before taking whatever kind of certification test is needed for Chinese.(Every language has different levels of requirements to be considered employable as an interpreter, from what I've been told and have read.) For example, with Japanese I plan on taking the JLPT N1 and taking any other certification while living and studying in Japan. (So much to do, I have a lot of work ahead of me!)

But again, everyone has their passion in life. I've chosen this as a career because it is not work for me, it's a way of life. There will be work in the future, I just need to keep reminding myself that sometimes you need to be patient before the payout comes. I am already being rewarded inside my heart and soul, but there are bills to pay!

Anyway I hope this has helped.

[abcdefg]

Carry a small notebook and a pencil wherever you go. Every time you come across a new word, or an interesting or useful phrase, note it down. If need be, get someone else to help you write it down. When you get back home, copy it into a file and keep it for reviewing. Personally I found this method to be much more fruitful than just trying to remember arbitrary lists of vocabulary, because when you come across something in real life, it has more significance to you, is thus easier to remember, and is more likely to be useful to you again in the future.

In addition to this, every time there is something you want to say in Chinese, but find that you can't, then write that down as well. When you have the chance, you can try to figure it out at your leisure, or even ask here for help. That is what I did many times. The only way you will improve your Chinese is to try to expand on what you already know.

I really like that method too. Good advice. It isn't a replacement for textbook study or formal teaching, but I would have been lost without it.