Why locals can't understand foreigners with a slightly wrong tonation but can understand 本地口音?

[greenarcher]

There's something I cannot understand for a long time. When foreigners speak mandarin with a slightly wrong accent/intonation, Chinese locals seem to have a hard time understanding them. However, I'm currently watching a TV show where they have guests from different provinces all over China, their Mandarin accent are so different from the standard Putonghua but other locals from other provinces don't have any problem communicating with them. I on the other hand, have a hard time catching up with those with a strong 口音.

Am I missing something here?

[skylee]

Different expectations perhaps? When they see your face they expect either 1) not to understand you at all because you might speak a foreing language or your Chinese might be very poor; OR 2) to hear pure, CCTV-anchor sort of Putonghua?

[jbradfor]

I think it has to do with getting accustomed to each accent individually.

For common accents (think American vs British vs Australian vs Indian English, for example), native speakers have enough exposure to them that one gets used to them, so one can understand them. For less common accents (think a typical American hearing a cockney accent, for example, of hearing a native Chinese speaker speaking English), there is a good chance that the listener is less used to that accent, and will have more trouble with it.

Similar to Chinese accents, I would expect a typical native Chinese speaker in China is constantly exposed to "common" accents, so they don't have any problem understanding them. However, now toss in your unusual accent, and they will have more trouble with it.

Similar with my 3-year old. I have little to no trouble understanding her, but strangers sometimes requires me to "translate" what she says.

The other possibility is that your accent is much worse than you think ;)

[songlei]

I think it has more to do with the fact that foreigners say unexpected things in unexpected ways. There are a lot of typical ways to combine words in Chinese, and foreign speakers may not conform to these ways. Plus the fact that Chinese grammar is insanely hard, and it's easy to mess up a sentence in general. Finally, many foreigners have problems with the pacing and the tonal structures of sentences, which makes the whole flow of speech unpredictable. But it's strange nonetheless, because I do seem to understand what they are saying even when a Chinese person doesn't. Perhaps it's a polite and indirect way of criticizing mistakes..

[Yang Rui]

1. Foreigners' grammar is often wrong, so the word that is expected to come next does not come, so every single word has to be deciphered individually (this has been pointed out.

2. Accents have consistent variations on the 'standard' - it may not sound like the standard pronunciation, but at least its differences are consistent eg. "Shi" consistently pronounced as "Si". So it is easy to adapt quickly to this, especially when other things, like tones, are all correct.

3. Sometimes Chinese people DON'T understand regional accents e.g. it is hard for some southerners to understand a really strong beijing accent.

[David Wong]

This thread reminds me of the period Hong Kong movies I remember seeing as a kid. These movies, typically those set around the time of the Opium Wars, portray Westerners speaking Mandarin with a strong and obvious accent. The tones were almost always wrong, yet their speech was perfectly understood by cinema audiences. How could that be?

Now bear in mind that a lot of Hong Kong movies made around that time (late 70's, early 80's) were re-dubbed in the studio. I bet it was a case of Chinese actors doing an impersonation of a Westerner speaking Mandarin. The result was a speech pattern: cadence, phrasing, words, etc that all conform to a native speaker's speech, with just the tones being (deliberately) mangled.

I'll see if I can dig up something on youtube.

[Hofmann]

Native speaker accents are often regular in how they deviate from the standard. Non-native speaker accents are often irregular in how they deviate from the standard.

In my experience, those who are not used to speaking tonal languages often make the tones FUBAR. This is where a lot of the irregularity comes from.

[Brian US]

As said before, I would say the tones are very important. I think it also has to do with the situation. One day I was leaving my apartment and my roommate/landlord told me in his thick Beijing accent to not forget my key. I was half dumbfounded and half not understanding him because he just saw me lock my door with key in hand.

You may also run into the not too observant Chinese here and there. I've seen foreigners go up to get subway tickets or get water on the street only to be met with a blank face of confusion. 99% of the people these Chinese deal with want one thing and I'm not sure how many people ask for directions with 2 kuai out.

I personally have had a hard time with British accents, especially on the phone. Maybe when native speakers are talking to each other they don't mind mumbling a bit. One time a Scottish guy started talking to me and I couldn't understand a single word he was saying, so I just nodded my head and smiled.

[Chinadoog]

If a Chinese person can't understand you, it's probably because your pronunciation is more than 'slightly wrong.'

My pronunciation isn't perfect, but I can't remember the last time someone didn't understand me

[greenarcher]

Great insights from everyone.

Yeah I forgot to add that it's easy for me to understand foreigners with a wrong Mandarin accent. Apparently it's easier for a fellow non-native to 'decipher' what they are saying than a local. A friend told me it's probably because my vocabulary is much limited that's why there's very little to go around with in guessing what the person is trying to say.

Very good point in the consistency of deviation/accents. British, Indian, and Australian English are still OK but Singaporean/Malaysian English might be challenging even for some native English speakers.

As to my personal accent, I believe it's fairly close to accurate. Native Chinese don't figure out I'm a foreign-born Chinese until I speak another language. Not to brag or anything, just basing it from experience. My topic covers not only myself but other foreigners who speaks with an accent who I understand most of the time when locals don't.

[amandagmu]

While I agree with the two native Chinese speakers on here who wrote that foreigners often get the grammar/word order messed up, I tend to believe that the problem is still the tonal one. I don't mean each character's tone, I mean the cadence and prosodic features of the entire sentence/conversation. As a native English speaker I tend to (unfortunately can't help it sometimes) carry over my own intonation. When I want to emphasize a particular word or phrase, I somewhat-unconsciously tend to think about how I would do so in English and then replicate in Chinese - for example "I don't want to buy THIS xxx I want to buy THAT one". That has been one of the my biggest struggles and I don't think I'll ever get it 100%.

Also, I can totally relate to the problem of being an obvious (blonde-haired) foreigner. Sometimes, I swear, when I start speaking Chinese the other person expects to hear English. On more than several occasions I have found myself repeating the same damned sentence at least twice before the other person understands me, or before another Chinese person steps in to help the first Chinese person speaking with me. This doesn't happen in environments where they expect Chinese (such as asking a librarian where a certain set of books are located, or sending payments at the bank) but more often in a place where they encounter lots of non-Chinese-speaking foreigners (police station, Starbucks, anywhere in the Village at Sanlitun, ETC).

But I also wanted to add something else I've noticed - it seems that tones are more important than accent depending on where you are. For example, as one person above mentioned, "Shi" sounding like "Si" and "Zhi" sounding like "Zi" was common in Taiwan, and I needed to speak extremely standard and crisp 普通话 with proper tones. Of course, the vocabulary was important, too, but I found that if I did not use tones then virtually no one understood me. In Beijing I have friends who can speak without tones and be understood by 75+ % of the population, which becomes a huge problem in the long run IMO. When I moved to Taiwan after being in both Beijing and Dalian, where no teacher had ever spent much time correcting my tones probably because they understood me, I essentially failed the oral placement exam at Taida/ICLP. The teachers who interviewed me told me about 20% of my tones were correct, which was obvious to me already given that my landlord and people on the street barely understood me...

[nickpellatt]

I think the biggest problem is some Chinese people in China dont expect foreigners to speak Chinese. Its almost like the lights go off and the shutters come down. I think its their mindset rather than my tones or grammar.

The reason I think this, is blank stares were common when I spoke Chinese in China, but are far less common if I speak Chinese to Chinese people in the UK. The standard of my Chinese is still bad, but the fact I can be understood by Mandarin speakers here would suggest to me that the problem is with the listener as much as, or more than, the speaker.

In my limited experience, most of the people who havent understood me are typically 老白姓, the common people you might interact with in corner shops and at bus stations. They probably have far less interaction with foreigners, and may not expect us to speak any Chinese. The others who havent understood are typically terrified of interaction with foreigners.

My limited interactions with children, friends and students in China were normally understood, ditto with both Taiwanese and Chinese students I have met and worked with in the UK. I know my Chinese is limited, and bad, but I have been understood in many situations, which makes me think when Im not understood, the problem is likely to be on the receivers end.

[Yang Rui]

when Im not understood, the problem is likely to be on the receivers end

I wouldn't be so sure. Think about when you phone a UK company and you're rerouted to a call centre in India - often the call centre workers have extremely strong Indian accents and are hard to understand. If you can't understand them, is it your fault or theirs? It's a similar situation because I reckon younger English people would be more likely to understand the strong foreign accent than elderly people.

Ultimately, you can't call yourself proficient in a foreign language (and I know in your post you don't claim proficiency, but this is presumably what most learners aim at) if you can't make yourself understood by a local. And an attitude which puts the onus on the listener to understand, rather than the speaker to make himself understood, is not likely to get a learner very far.

[David Wong]

When I want to emphasize a particular word or phrase, I somewhat-unconsciously tend to think about how I would do so in English and then replicate in Chinese - for example "I don't want to buy THIS xxx I want to buy THAT one".

Are you doing that by stretching out the word receiving emphasis, drawing out the sound? I find the fourth tone doesn't stretch well.

You could try this trick next time. Speak the words you wish to emphasize more slowly, by inserting a half-beat pause before each emphasized word.

I've also found that when talking to someone who's mis-pronouncing words, whatever the language, I find myself relying heavily on context to guess at the intended word. Easier to do when speaking English. More often than not, mis-pronunciations are obvious, and the intended word is evident. A mis-pronounced word in Mandarin could easily be the paragon of perfect intonation in a different context.

[nickpellatt]

To be fair - if my father called a call centre, he would be doing so with a preconception that he will be directed to India, and will be given the run around. As a result, his attitude in making that call would probably affect the outcome and general overall impression of the conversation. His mindset could result in not understanding something that was said.

What I am suggesting is similar could happen with some Chinese people when confronted by a foreigner who tries to speak English. It isnt unique to Chinese people, and lots of people have the same misconceptions. It does seem very prevalent in China though, hence the original post.

My Chinese isnt great, but I been witness to someone answering the question 你叫什么名字？with the answer, directed to a third party, 'please tell your friend I cannot speak English'. With the clear context of a first meeting, even allowing for poor language skills, the only reason someone couldnt understand this is a strongly formed preconception about the speaker. Ive been in taxis and experienced similar, and I would guess most students of Chinese in China have experienced the same.

As I noted, people who have less misconceptions about foreigners speaking Chinese are likely to be people who have had more frequent contact with foreigners, and children who generally have few misconceptions about people. In my limited experience, these people are far more likely to understand foreigners speaking Chinese.

Language is a two way interaction though, and the onus is on one party to listen just as much as it is on the other to speak. Depending upon the scenario I would even suggest their is more onus on the listener to make an effort to 'decode' the speaker, especially if one party is a language learner. Listening isnt just a passive skill and it has to be actively practised by the listening party for meaningful communication to take place.

[David Wong]

Onus is a strong word.

Absolutely agree that carrying on a conversation with a less-than-fluent speaker requires effort. Some people will be more motivated than others. Are the Chinese less motivated than people in other countries? I'd rather think that "decoding" imperfect Mandarin requires a greater level of effort.

[greenarcher]

Ha... Call Centers... we have tons of that here. I wonder which people prefer, Indians or Filipinos' "American" accent.

Anyway, being exposed to foreigners speaking Chinese probably helps a lot for locals to understand the deviations or slight mistakes. Teachers are the best example. I could barely understand the things what my old Japanese classmate is saying but apparently our teacher understands much more than I do. I also have a hard time understanding a Russian fellow with his strong intonation but again my teacher understands him.

One thing I still don't understand is why locals couldn't or wouldn't incorporate context clues. Like what someone said above, we learn what someone is saying if we know what he is talking about. It helps a lot in making up for mistakes in the way you say something. Why can't the Chinese locals do the same? Maybe they are less patient?

[Manuel]

The tones carry more meaning than we may think. I have spent about 5 months working at one of China's main 动车所 (high-speed train depot) where there's usually noise and I can assure you two Chinese blokes standing 50 meters apart shouting at each other with a lazy-ass accent can perfectly understand what's being said (with the occasional 啥? of course). My Chinese is not wow but even I can understand some of the usual phrases they use just by the melody. Surprisingly, for me to acquire this "skill" has required no extra effort, because the sound passively and naturally has carved its way into my brain by merely being exposed to it. Learning is, in my opinion, a passive involuntary process which we cannot speed up beyond the biological limitations of our brains; at best we can optimize it, and one good way to optimize learning is to get as much exposure as possible to the target material. Unfortunately it takes a lot of exposure to re-educate the brain of a non-tonal speaker to learn tonal stuff, based on my personal experience...

I asked one of the Chinese guys at work who can speak some English whether he found it odd or felt uncomfortable with the fact that the English language didn't have tones, and he asserted that he didn't, because it was easier for him not to have to remember additional stuff; however he did note that English words are generally longer (as in having more syllables) than Chinese words. However, he didn't realize that longer toneless words and shorter tonal words are just two flavours of redundancy, needed to disambiguate--the complexity is still present one way or another.

Then there's the issue of sung Chinese where the tones are disregarded like Chinese drivers disregard pedestrians. Most Chinese people I've asked tell me they have no issues understanding lyrics. I guess the lyrics have enough context redundancy built in, or use fairly predictable/standard word patterns, to make the intended meaning obvious enough. I'd still love to see a Chinese songwriter release a song whose opening line were "I like big airplanes"

Mind you, English and in fact all languages have tones, and I am not talking about sentence tune here: we say "télephone" not "teléphone" which would sound rather odd (the é showing stress placement), and I bet anyone who speaks half-decent English can pronounce this word alright. Unlike Spanish and other languages, English doesn not require a stress mark over the vowel that carries the word stress, therefore the only way for speakers to remember where the stress should be is by ear, for there is nothing else to rely on. With pinyin it's different: the tone marks must be written to disambiguate, i.e. they are a fundamental component of pinyin, and those of us who find it easier to learn visually naturally attempt to memorize the tone marks (appearance) rather than what they actually mean (sound!). This method surely does the trick, yet it is extremely clumsy and inefficient because the brain needs to do extra work:

Thought > Image > Sound > Speech (a visual learner)

instead of:

Thought > Sound > Speech (a fairly fluent speaker)

or even:

Thought > Speech (native or very fluent speaker)

Once you learn a word by its sound rather than by the way it looks in written form going from thought to speech becomes second nature: the original awkward stack of tones, vowels, consonants and meaning gets combined into a neat single unit that sits rather nicely in our long term memory. That's the way children learn, and that's the way we should learn, but many will argue that the adult brain works differently, so I am probably wrong.

Anyway this is just a theory of mine. I didn't study psychology so please be nice

[nickpellatt]

I dont think onus is too strong a word. If a native speaker of any language is involved with a non-native speaker, they are under a little pressure to listen hard and decode any utterance. In that situation, the linguistic relationship is not equal ... the listener must surely carry the speaker for communication to be effective.

I teach English, this is my experience with students. I have to listen in a far more active manner to them, than I would to another native speaker. Its perfectly natural and normal.

I am not suggesting Chinese are less capable, of course not...my experience with many Chinese people would confirm that. What I would suggest, is many Chinese people are not accustomed to being in this position (speaking to non-native speakers) are less experienced at this, and some 'may' hold preconceived ideas about foreigners. ie - expecting them to only speak English.

[adrianlondon]

In my opinion there are two reasons for this.

1. Many Chinese aren't used to hearing foreigners speak Mandarin. They're not used to foreign accents. When a French person speaks English and uses a bit of odd (French!) grammar or says "zees eees zeee" instead of "This is the", us Brits are used to this, understand them perfectly and don't correct. We might even find the accent sexy or cute! A Chinese person hearing a foreigner trying to say the pinyin "c" as "ts" will often correct the foreigner for ages and ages, and just not get it that the poor foreigner might not be able to get it any better. That foreigner might have been me ;) I said "cong" about 10 times then gave up. It sounds right to me ;)

2. We use foreign (often English) grammar which other foreigners can understand (as can any teacher as they know our level and therefore what words we will use) but non-English speaking Chinese are unlikely to be able to guess.