From Korean to Classical Chinese

[jachristen]

My current priority language is Korean, and as a part of learning Korean I'm making a point of learning Hanja. I'm also very interested in Chinese, but I have to admit my primary interest with regards to Chinese is Classical Chinese; I'm more interested in reading ancient philosophic works than with speaking to living Chinese people. That's not to say I don't wish to eventually study modern Mandarin Chinese to completion, but I could reach my current goals more quickly if I could avoid it for the time being. Will learning Hanja provide me with a solid basis for circumventing modern Chinese entirely and diving straight into Classical Chinese? Does anyone have any advice regarding such an approach?

[gato]

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/23700-learning-classical-chinese-with-no-prior-experience/

One major problem is that all English learning material for classical Chinese I have seen are at the beginner level. So once you are past the beginner level, you will have to start to use materials written in modern Chinese -- that is, unless you are fluent in Korean and can find suitable material written for Koreans.

[aristotle1990]

Oh, yeah, go right ahead. It used to be that in the West, universities would teach only classical Chinese, never spoken Mandarin. And, of course, generations of Koreans, Japanese, and Vietnamese learned classical Chinese without ever learning spoken Chinese.

The only issue is that, as Gato brings up, it's very convenient to use Mandarin to learn classical Chinese.

[gato]

You might need to look for textbooks written in the 19th century ;-)

[Insula Formosa]

I am a Korean learning Mandarin, and I have also read works such as Confucius, Laocius, Mencius, and Zhuangzi. Yes, if you can read Hanja, reading classical Chinese(Hanwen 漢文, Hanmun in Korean) becomes possible(although modern Hanja does not have identical meanings with classical Chinese, of course) and you will be able to pick up Hanja-based vocabulary much quicker. I wouldn't recommend learning Hanja to someone who is exclusively interested in learnign Korean, but if you are also interested in classical Chinese/mandarin, then yeah, go for it. There are tons of Korean books and webpages that read classical Chinese works in Korean pronunciations. And most of all, most of the pre-modern Korean literature are in fact written in classical Chinese! (Just as many medieval European authors chose to write in Latin)

Don't expect an average Korean to understand Hanja and use it in daily life, though. Although being revived in school education, most of the post-war generation don't have much knowledge on Hanja, since it was regarded as unnecessary. Quite a few people still learn it, but it's nowhere close to being as actively used as in Japan or China.

Here is one Korean poem writte in Hanmun by Jeong Mong-ju(鄭夢周) that I learned in High school:

春雨細不滴

Chun u se bu jeok 춘우세부적

The spring rain is thin and does not make drops 봄 비 가늘어 방울 없더니

夜中微有聲

Ya jung mi yu seong 야중미유성

But middle of the night, I can hear its minute sounds 밤 되자 빗소리 귀에 들리네.

雪盡南溪漲

Seol jin nam gye chang 설진남계창

The snow melts, making the south river rise; 눈 녹아 남쪽 시냇물 불어날 테고

草芽多少生

Cho a da so saeng 초아다소생

Leaves will also bloom. 풀 싹도 돋아날 거야.

You can see that the pronunciation is different from the mandarin pronunciation in several ways. Most of all, there are no tones(there were in medieval Korean but now they have disappeared and remain somewhat vaguely in some regional dialects) and there are more closed syllables, such as -k -l -m.

[Insula Formosa]

For the textbook issue, I don't know your level of fluency in Korean, but remember that there are a lot of Korean textbooks that teach Hanja to youngsters. (I started learning Hanja when I was 7 or 8 ) So if you can read very easy Korean (and bear all the cutesy illustrations), it would be easy to find a textbook to learn Hanja with the Korean pronunciations. These textbooks, however, generally only teach individual characters of Hanja(how to write them, pronounce them, how they are formed, etc), and not how to read Hanmun(classical Chinese), such as syntax, grammar, etc. But then again, there are books such as "Confucius for kids" or "Hanmun poems for children," that will show you the Hanja, translation, pronunciation, and the meaning of some characters in the text, although not how to academically read classical Chinese.

[Hofmann]

I would guess that there are plenty of Classical Chinese textbooks in Korean. If I were learning Korean, I'd go that route for practice in both Korean and Chinese. Textbooks in English are pretty good in my experience, although I haven't seen a good dictionary. The closest I've found is John Cikoski's unfinished Notes for a Lexicon of Classical Chinese, organized alphabetically by Karlgren's romanization.

Just wondering, do they do the switch-around-and-insert-stuff thing in Korean?

[Insula Formosa]

Just wondering, do they do the switch-around-and-insert-stuff thing in Korean?

Unlike the Japanese, the Koreans usually don't attempt to read Hanmun in their word order. The Japanese have the method to read the Kanji by their meaning instead of their sound; in Korean Hanja are read only by their sound. (I remember reading an interview of a Japanese scholar who explained the difference between Japanese and Korean culture, the former tending to "transform" foreign cultures while the latter tended to preserve its orthodoxy) But we do have something called 懸吐(현토 Hyeon-to) inserted between phrases to make the reading more natural and rhythmical. For example, when we read the first phrase of Confucius:

"子曰 學而時習之면(Myeon) 不亦說乎아(A) 有朋이(I) 自遠方來면(Myeon) 不亦樂乎아(A)"

So in English it would be like:

"子曰 if 學而時習之, is 不亦說乎; if 有朋 is 自遠方來, is 不亦樂乎"

This method never changes the original word order, because each phrase is treated as a "block;" that is, "A can B while C can D" would be read, in the Korean syntaxe, "A B can while C D can," but with Hyeon-to(懸吐) it's written as "A-can-B while C-can-D." I'm not sure if I explained clearly enough.

This is something done conventionally, and texts such as Daoist texts might not have these, because they were considered heretic and weren't read widely.

And there is 言解(언해 Eon-hae), which is a sort of translation that was used to teach the less-learned people, I think. Such as:

子 가라사대 學하고 時로 習하면 또한 깃브디 아니하랴

子 Garasadae 學hago 時ro 習hamyeon Ddohan gitbeudi aniharya

子 said if (one) does 學 and does 習 by 時, wouldn't it be pleasant?

So I guess this is kind of similar to the Japanese method, although it's more like a translation and doesn't necessarily attempt to contain all the characters of the original text. But most people would prefer to read either the original text or a modern translation, rather than something in between, unless they wanted to study medieval Korean or something.

[gato]

Very interesting, insula.

[jachristen]

Thanks for your replies everyone, especially Insula Formosa. Even with my limited Hanja so far I could read out a few of the snippets you quoted (like 草芽多少生), so that heartens me a little bit. Can you recommend a Korean textbook that might be useful for acquiring the grammar required to read serious works? Also, regarding, "There are tons of Korean books and webpages that read classical Chinese works in Korean pronunciations," could you possibly post what you'd consider some of the better ones that might serve as good practice?

[Insula Formosa]

Korean textbook that might be useful for acquiring the grammar required to read serious works

I've never learned Hanmun grammar through separate textbooks, but search by 한문독해(漢文讀解) and you will get many.

http://www.yes24.com/24/goods/189138?scode=032&OzSrank=1 (Not shipped overseas, but might be shippable in other sites)

http://www.yes24.com/24/goods/275840?scode=032&OzSrank=2

http://www.yes24.com/24/goods/3523280?scode=032&OzSrank=4 (focused on Buddhist Hanmun texts)

Korean books and webpages that read classical Chinese works in Korean pronunciations

Websites that give translations on classical Hanmun, especially Confucius or Buddhist classics, are plenty:

Confucius

http://user.chol.com/~chungyy/chungyy/06_hanja/4_noneo/noneo-1.htm

http://osj1952.com.ne.kr/interpretation//non/kframe1.htm

http://user.chollian.net/~tsym/nonomok.htm'>http://user.chollian.net/~tsym/nonomok.htm (Incomplete, without pronunciation)

Buddhist Sutras

http://www.buljahome.com/diamond_sutra.htm Diamond Sutra, Hanmun-Korean-English

http://kr.buddhism.org/zen/bansim.html Heart Sutra

http://www.yetgle.com/bubgu.htm Dharmatrata

Priests singing Buddhist Sutras in Korean pronunciation

Diamond Sutra

Heart Sutra

(They are quite pleasant actually.)

Classic Poems

http://user.chollian.net/~tsym/

http://osmstar.com.ne.kr/index.html

But the explanations of the texts that most of these sites give are pretty amateurish. Unless you just uniquely want the Korean pronunciations, you can get much more sophisticated explanations(interpretations) of these texts through paper books:

http://www.yes24.com/24/Goods/3241129?Acode=101 Confucius(Gongja) by Do-ol

http://www.yes24.com/24/Goods/3903121?Acode=101 Diamond Sutra(Geumgang-gyeong) by Do-ol

http://www.yes24.com/24/Goods/3903121?Acode=101 Zhuangzi(Jangja) by Kim Hank-ju

http://www.yes24.com/24/goods/1516432?scode=032&OzSrank=7 Mencius(Maeng-ja) with Hyeonto by Seong baek-hyo

These all can be shipped overseas.

I'm very far, far away from an expert and this is just a very biased recommendation based on what I personally liked.

You should be able to speak very good Korean to read these books, though.

[herglyphs]

Here's a book that sounds like a good match for what you're looking for.

Product Description

Historical, Literary, and Cultural Approach to the Korean Language was written in an attempt to fill the need for a scholarly method for learning to speak, to understand, and--above all--to read Korean. While daily conversational ability is not ignored, this book, as the title indicates, is primarily concerned with presenting the language in its cultural context. This introductory volume presupposes no knowledge of the language. After pronunciation and writing systems (both the Korean alphabet and the use of Chinese characters) are introduced, grammar is systematically presented and drilled through lessons whose text passages concern Korean history and cultural traditions. An answer key to the exercises is provided so that students who purchase the accompanying cassettes can use this method to study Korean on their own.

Without cassettes:

http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Literary-Cultural-Approach-Language/dp/1565911512/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302214321&sr=1-1

W/ cassettes:

http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Literary-Cultural-Approach-cassettes/dp/1565911806/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302214321&sr=1-4

[jachristen]

Hello, everyone. It has been a while, and since a number of people here were kind enough to offer their advice, I thought I would give an update on how things are going with this project. I finally decided to begin my studies on this matter in earnest. The texts I am currently using to pursue my Classical Chinese goals are, "A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese," by Paul Rouzer (which, excellently, includes Korean pronunciations), Pulleyblank's "Outline of Classical Chinese Grammar," (which, unfortunately, does not, but no matter), the searchable online dictionary at ctext.org, and a handful of Korean dictionaries which provide classical definitions for their associated Hanja. I've been dedicating roughly an hour a day to this pursuit, half of it focused on character mastery (which has also paid off dividends on the Korean Hanja Proficiency Exam), and the other half focused on working my way through the aforementioned primer.

However, the textbook in question only includes translations which I can check my own against up to chapter 10. I was wondering if there was anyone here who, if I were to post snippets of old Chinese text along with my own attempt at translation, would be willing from time to time to take a glance at them with an eye to their accuracy? I would appreciate it.

[Daan]

Sure, I'd be more than happy to look over your translations and help you think through any questions you may have. I'm not an expert myself either, but we've had similar threads here before and it's always been an excellent way for everyone involved to get a better understanding of the texts.

[jbradfor]

Isn't a lot of Classical Chinese text already translated into English? If you pick those, you have a comparison translation ready.

[jachristen]

Well, here is the text I just finished up with:

曹沫者，魯人也，以勇力事魯莊公。莊公好力，曹沬爲魯將，與齊戰，三敗北。魯莊公懼，

乃獻遂邑之地以和，猶復以爲將。齊桓公許與魯會于柯而盟。桓公與莊公既盟於壇上，曹

沬執匕首劫齊桓公。桓公左右莫敢動，而問曰：「子將何欲？」曹沬曰：「齊強魯弱，而

大國侵魯，亦已甚矣。今魯城壞，即壓齊境！君其圖之！」桓公乃許盡歸魯之侵地。既已

言，曹沫投其匕首，下壇，北面就群臣之位，顏色不變，辭令如故。桓公怒，欲倍其約。

管仲曰：「不可！夫貪小利以自快，棄信於諸侯，失天下之援。不如與之。」於是桓公乃

遂割魯侵地。曹沬三戰所亡地，盡復予魯。

Here is my proposed translation:

Cao Mo was a man of Lu, who served Duke Zhang of Lu with bravery and power. Duke Zhang liked power, so he made Cao Ma the general of Lu, after which he warred with Qi and was defeated three times. Duke Zhang of Lu was afraid, so he gave the land of the city of Sui for peace, and still again made him general. Duke Huan of Qi agreed to meet with Lu in Ke and form an alliance. After Duke Huan had already formed an alliance atop the altar with Duke Zhuang, Cao Mo grabbed a dagger and attacked Duke Huan. None of Duke Huan's courtiers dared move, but asked, "What do you want, general?" Cao Mo said, "Qi is strong and Lu is weak, but the great country invades Lu to an all ready excessive extent. Now if the walls of Lu crumbled, they would fall directly on Qi soil! Consider this my lord!" Duke Huan then permitted the complete return of Lu's conquered land. After he finished speaking, Cao Mo dropped his dagger, stepped down from the altar, faced north and returned to where the courtiers were standing, his facial expression unchanged, his speech as before. Duke Huan grew angry and wanted to renege on his promise. Guan Zhong said, "Impemissible! I say, covetting small benefit for self interest casts away the trust of the noble lords and loses the support of the world. That is not as good as giving it." From that, Duke Huan then finally cut off the invasion of Lu's land. Cao Mo completely gave back to Lu the land which was lost in three wars.

I've highlighted in purple the segments I'm especially uncertain of, but obviously there could be other errors or misunderstandings as well. I'd welcome and be thankful for the suggested corrections of anyone who would care to offer them.

[Daan]

Sterling job, I'd say. Just two comments: 亦已甚矣 means something like 'is already quite serious'. As an adjective, 甚 can often mean 'bad, serious', in addition to its adverbial meaning of 'too'. Some examples:

殆有甚焉！

Things could probably be worse! (Mencius I-A.7)

是皆已甚。

These [ways] are all quite bad. (Mencius III-B.7)

由此觀之王之敝甚矣。

Looking at it in this way, Your Majesty's already quite unsuitable! (Zhànguócè)

甚矣吾衰也！

How serious is my deterioration! (Analects 7.5)

And towards the end, you translate 曹沬三戰所亡地，盡復予魯。as 'Cao Mo completely gave back to Lu the land which was lost in three wars.'. But 曹沬 is part of the noun phrase that is nominalised by 所. You could translate that phrase as 'the lands which Cao Mo lost in three wars', and so the translation of the full sentence would be 'the lands which Cao Mo lost in three wars were all returned once more to Lu.'. Your translation could perhaps be correct if there was an object marker such as 將 before 三戰所亡地, but even then it'd be unlikely, because it would imply that Cao Mo had the power to give Lu back its lands, while this power was obviously with the Duke of Qi

I hope these help.

[jachristen]

That helps a lot, especially your analysis of the last sentence. I was thinking of "give" in the more figurative sense of his actions being the cause of the land being transfered back, but your interpretation is obviously more elegant and surely correct. Exactly the sort of input that I need, thank you so much.

[jachristen]

Hello again! Here is another translation I was hoping for some input on. There were a few entire sentences which, although I think I got the jist of, I'm really not too sure of. Any help is incredibly appreciated.

其後百六十有七年而吳有專諸之事。專諸者，吳堂邑人也。伍子胥之亡楚而如吳也，知專

諸之能。伍子胥既見吳王僚，說以伐楚之利。吳公光曰：「彼伍員父兄皆死於楚，而員言

伐楚。欲自爲報私讎也，非能爲吳。」吳王乃止。伍子胥知公子光之欲殺吳王僚，乃曰：

「彼光將有內志，未可說以外事。」乃進專諸於公子光。光之父曰吳王諸樊。諸樊弟三人，

次曰餘祭，次曰夷眛，次曰季子札。諸樊知季子札賢而不立太子，以次傳三弟，欲卒致國

于季子札。諸樊既死，傳餘祭。餘祭死，傳夷眛。夷眛死，當傳季子札。季子札逃不肯立。

吳人乃立夷眛之子僚爲王。公子光曰：「使以兄弟次邪，季子當立。必以子乎，則光真適

嗣，當立。」故嘗陰養謀臣以求立。光既得專諸，善客待之。

160 years after this, 吳 had the service of 專諸. 專諸 was a man of 吳's city of 堂. When 伍子胥 fled 楚 and came to 吳, he knew of 專諸's ability. 伍子胥 had already seen King 僚 of 吳, convincing him of the profit in attacking 楚. Prince 光 of 吳 said, "This fellow 伍員's father and older brother both died in 楚, now 員 says to attack 楚. He wants revenge on private enemies for his own sake, it cannot be for the sake of 吳." The King of 吳 then stopped. 吳子伍 knew that Prince 光 wanted to kill King 僚, and so said, "That fellow 光 is lead by inner ambitions, he cannot be persuaded by external matters." He then presented 專諸 to Prince 光. 光's father was called King 諸樊 of 吳. 諸樊 had three brothers, the first was called 餘祭, the next was called 夷眛, and the last was called 季子札. 諸樊 knew 季子札's worth, and so did not establish an heir, by means of which the crown would be passed down to his three brothers in turn, wanting to finally end up giving the country to 季子札. After 諸樊 had died, the crown passed to 餘祭. 餘祭 died, and the crown passed to 夷眛. 夷眛 died, and the crown should have rightfully passed to 季子札. 季子札 fled, not wanting to be set on the throne. The people of 吳 then put 夷眛's son 僚 on the throne and made him king. Prince 光 said, "Supposing that the succession is from older brother to younger brother, 季子 should rightfully be established. If it is necessary to turn to sons, then I am the lawful heir, and ought to be established." He therefore tried to secretly cultivate this plan with the ministers as a means of seeking the throne. 光 had since acquired the services of (had already profited from?) 專諸, and depended upon him as a good retainer.

[Nakura]

Jachristen, yes,that's right, you've got it!