的 pronounced as 'di' - is that a southern Chinese thing?

[trisha2766]

I've been looking for some dvd's to help my daughter learn Mandarin. We've got one made in Singapore (which she loves) but I noticed that their 的's are pronounced more like 'di'. Also the popular 'Play & Learn Chinese with Mei Mei' series, which I've seen a little of on YouTube, it seems like the de's are turned in di's. I think those were made in Anhui.

For example, their '我的朋友' is pronounced 'wo di pengyou' instead of 'wo de pengyou'.

I'm curious if that is a regional thing or not. China Sprout has their own series for very young children. I'm trying to find out what type of accent they use in their DVD's. I'd rather stick with something in standard mandarin or maybe a northern accent.

Also, anyone know specifics of how the mandarin in Henan might differ from standard Mandarin?

[889]

I think it sounds pretty hick to say 的 di in normal speech. I'd be more than reluctant to use any teaching materials that promoted the pronunciation.

But note that in special cases -- like some songs -- the 的 di pronunciation may be normal. (And there seem to be a lot of songs in that Mei Mei series.)

Of course, since it's not uncommon usage, it's nonetheless important to be able to recognize the pronunciation.

[Don_Horhe]

I think 'di' for 的 instead of 'de' in normal, everyday speech is indeed a southern thing - when I used to teach in Wuhan the kids would talk among themselves in Wuhanese and say 'di', but switch to 'de' when they addressed me in Putonghua. Other than that, it's limited to songs and poetry.

[889]

But Li Peng consistently uses 的 di in the most formal circumstances, and he's not a southerner. Or a kid.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjc4Njc0Njg=.html (starting at 3:50)

[roddy]

Is it a southern thing, or a kid thing though? Or a southern kid thing?

And didn't we have a recent discussion on this?

[Hofmann]

I read somewhere (too lazy to get it) that somewhere 之 is pronounced /ti/, and when read with a light tone is /tɤ/. If this is true, then "di" for 的 is a conservative thing.

[renzhe]

You should keep in mind that 的 should be pronounced "di4" or "di2" or even "di1" in certain contexts: 目的, 的确, 打的 .

In its general, possessive meaning, it should be pronounced "de". The "di" pronounciation is usually tied to dialectal pronunciation, in my experience. See 佟掌柜 from 武林外传.

[trisha2766]

Thanks! In this case its definitely pronounced that way for the possessive like in '我的朋友'.

But even if its considered ok in songs, I don't think that would be the best thing for a child learning the language outside of China. I'll try to find something else if I can.

Thanks!

[renzhe]

Actually, thinking of what Hoffman said, 的 is always pronounced "di" when it carries a tone, so this is the "real" pronunciation.

It is only "de" when unstressed, like when used as a possessive marker. This is the standard pronunciation when unstressed, though, and this is what I would use in any official context.

[trisha2766]

I was watching the video again and noticed that in the 2 tigers song instead of saying 'pao de kuai' they also said 'pao di kuai'. Different de character but still unstressed and without a tone a far as I know.

[renzhe]

It is 跑得快, a different "de", so all the stories about the pronunciation of 的 do not apply. 得 is pronounced either “de2", "de5" or "dei3", never "di".

When singing, "de" is sometimes pronounced "di" because it sounds clearer and carries the melody better. That's not how you should be speaking, if you want to sound standard.

Keep in mind that there are no tones when singing Mandarin. You can't learn tones through singing.

[Jose]

I agree with renzhe. The syllable "di", as in dī, dí, dǐ, dì never carries a light tone, becoming "de" when unstressed. This difference between a strong and a weak pronunciation is similar to what happens in English with some very common words like "a" or "the", which have a normal unstressed pronunciation with a weak vowel alongside a strong pronunciation with a long vowel that is only common when the word is stressed. A similar phenomenon happens in Chinese even though Chinese dictionaries, unlike English ones, never show this difference between a weak and a strong form.

A similar case is the unstressed "me" syllable, as in 什么. There is no *mē, *mé, *mě, *mè syllable in Mandarin Chinese, so the stressed version is actually "mo", and that's how it's often sung.

I think this is not strictly a North v. South difference, but southern speakers use the light tone much less often than northerners, if at all. And this may explain why pronunciations like "di" for 的 and "mo" for 么 are more often heard from southern speakers, and particularly singers from Taiwan and Hong Kong.

[will-w]

For的in我的朋友.I think the better you say standerd Mandarin,the less you say di instead of de.

I used a lot di in my hometown,which is in Hebei.When i was in Beijing,i always say wo3 de5(my）

[xiaocai]

But Li Peng consistently uses 的 di in the most formal circumstances, and he's not a southerner. Or a kid.

http://v.youku.com/v...c4Njc0Njg=.html (starting at 3:50)

I thought he was born in Shanghai. Isn't that considered south enough?

[889]

I admit that I tend to think of "southern" in the limited sense of Fujian, Guangdong, Guangxi and Hainan. Maybe Guizhou and Yunnan, too.

But does Li Peng speak with a Shanghai accent? I'm not sure where he was raised. Though "adopted" by the Zhou Enlais, that doesn't mean they necessarily raised him. In any event, I don't think all those 的 dis added to his stature as a national leader. Of course, Li Peng had more serious problems in that regard than his accent.

[xiaocai]

I think geographical south is somehow different from lingustic south, and therefore southern accents to me do not neccesarily match with those "southern provinces" on map.

And I do not think that he has an obvious Shanghai accent. He pronounces it "di" sometimes but also "de" occasionally as well, basically showing that his has a not-so-stable "school accent", as with many other people who did not go through systematical training of standard spoken Mandarin. I think it is just his natural accent, which is perfectly fine to me cinsidering his age and the places he grew up.

[Glenn]

That's a good point about geographical versus linguistic south (or regions in general). We have the same phenomenon in the US, at least according to William Labov, where Charleston, SC (and I believe New Orleans, LA) isn't a linguistically southern city in that it doesn't share the same traits as most of the rest of the region does in a general sense.

[yialanliu]

As a Shanghainese - We are definitely southern

--Sidebar, southern and northern is historically defined based on the food you eat, it just so happens that shanghai is the cusp geographically, but it's not all about geography. If you eat mantou(wheat based) then you're from the north. Southerners eat much less wheat and more rice due to it being a "southern" crop and wheat a "nothern" crop.

Another note about di/de

It really depends on location again. If you speak shanghainese, you can use di as it is not putonghua. This is true for many dialects in China. I honestly would recommend people to try not to start mixing in local dialects and make them your own. Typically, these dialects do not travel far and used far less often. While a native can get away with it, odds are, if Chinese is not your native language, your tone is already bad enough for people to understand. To start throwing dialects in there from different parts of the country is only going to make it harder for people to understand.

One thing to note 的确 should always be di-que, not de-que.

EDIT: My bad about the bump, didn't realize how old this topic was

[Lu]

I agree that it's better to not get too strong of a local accent, but I have to strongly disagree with your remark on tones. To assume that all foreigners sound like foreigners in 80s HK movies is really a mistake. I'm not the only one here who is consistently taken for a native speaker on the phone.

Oh, and a month is really not so old for a topic on here! Start apologizing when it's older than a year :-)

[xuexiansheng]

@ Don_Horhe

I think 'di' for 的 instead of 'de' in normal, everyday speech is indeed a southern thing - when I used to teach in Wuhan the kids would talk among themselves in Wuhanese and say 'di', but switch to 'de' when they addressed me in Putonghua. Other than that, it's limited to songs and poetry.

Does Wuhan have the southern 's' for 'sh' thing? Or is it far enough north to have pretty standard putonghua?