What type of degree to take?

[thenimblethief]

I am writing this on behalf of my son (Joshua Webb) who has been a regular contributor to the forums in the past. He has moved to a new apartment and will not have his internet access until this weekend.

Joshua is taking the new HSK level 6 next month. He is collating his BA dcegree application for Xiamen university but has a problem in choosing which route to take. He appears to have two options.

1. Take the BA degree open to Foreign Language Students which requires two years of language study and then two more

years doing the degree. This will result in a weakened BA degree, but the chance for him to do a Masters degree

for the following two years.

or

2. Take a normal 4 year BA degree, along with normal chinese students. This will obviously be a stronger degree. He

can then decide to find work, either in China, or the UK, or other countries. The c hance of doing a Masters

degree would be taken at leisure later on.

I have spoken to Huawei in Basingstoke; his hometown here in England. They say that the stronger BA will hold him in better stead in the UK. However, in China, for an overseas person, they might think either option to be OK. This is only one company however. Joshua has asked me to post this to you guys for your valuable and trusted comments. Thank you in advance.

Malcolm Webb

[fanglu]

I don't know of anyone from an English-speaking country who has done either of those, so this is entirely speculative, but my view is this:

Some employers will care that you have a BA, very few will care what the major is. Does it make you a better office worker if your major was Chinese versus, say, philosophy?

A degree from a Chinese university will most likely not be highly regarded for entry to a masters program, again, regardless of the major. That's not to say you couldn't get into a masters in the UK with a BA from a Chinese university, just that the skills they would be interested in (analytical skills, research etc) are unlikely to be developed by a degree from a Chinese university. That goes for either the ordinary chinese degree or the BA for foreigners.

If it were me, I'd do the program for foreigners. Given the above, you'd only really be taking the course to improve your language, and I suspect your Chinese would get better in a program where the teacher was deliberately challenging your language abilities than in a Chinese class where there is probably not much assessment and they would likely mark foreigners easily.

[anonymoose]

What subject is he proposing to study if he chooses the 4-year BA degree along with Chinese students?

In my opinion, a degree in Chinese language on its own is not very useful, especially being a language degree aimed at foreigners. I say this because a language on its own is rarely a sufficient qualification for most jobs, and where the language is important, there will likely be many native speakers who are better able to fill the role. Of course this is not absolute, for example, he might be able to find jobs such as teaching Chinese in the UK, or working in the British Embassy in Beijing, and so on, but nevertheless, I feel the opportunities would be rather restricted.

On the other hand, if he pursues a degree in some other subject, then he will be qualified for any jobs in that field. Of course, the opportunities available depend on what subject he studies, but having done a degree in Chinese, he will still have proof of his linguistic accomplishments. Regarding going on to a masters, I don't think having done a degree in China in itself would be a disadvantage. After all, there are many Chinese masters and PhD students in the UK. However, one thing to consider is that if he chooses this route, he will be competing against local students, and most likely his grades will be fairly low. This might affect his chances for further study.

Another point is that regular BA courses in China, unlike in the UK, require one to study many subjects not related to the major. So, for example, everyone has to study computing and English (though foreign students may be able to substitute this with Chinese, if the university offers this option) and if he is taking a science-related degree, he will have to take classes in things like advanced maths, physics, chemistry and so on. Arts-related degrees, likewise, have irrelevant subjects. Most of the first year is wasted on these things. (On the other hand, foreign students have it easy compared with local students, who in addition have to do politics and physical education.) If he chooses the foreigners' Chinese degree, then I suspect that most of these other subjects will not be required.

[roddy]

Second option. He'll come out with better general and academic Chinese than the people on the 'for foreigners' option, plus all the vocab specific to whatever his chosen subject is.

I suspect your Chinese would get better in a program where the teacher was deliberately challenging your language abilities than in a Chinese class where there is probably not much assessment and they would likely mark foreigners easily.

I have had some relevant experiences - not all schools will be the same of course. But I'll note that (if I remember right) for those courses the Ministry of Education expects you to have an (old) HSK 8 at the end to graduate. So that's four years of full-time study to reach an upper-intermediate level - not a good use of time.

As for future prospects - it's a choice of 'went to China and got a degree in Chinese' and 'went to China and got a degree in whatever . . . IN Chinese'. I know which one sounds more impressive to me.

What is young Joshua (credit to him, by the way, I suspect when he first turned up here asking questions I might have been sceptical about his plans to move to China, but he seems to be making a pretty good job of it) actually planning to study?

[skylee]

Another point is that regular BA courses in China, unlike in the UK, require one to study many subjects not related to the major.

Sorry if this is off-topic, but is this not the trend? I think this is called whole-person development and/or general education/liberal studies. I think this is quite good for a first degree, no?

[anonymoose]

Well, those things are available in the UK for those interested, but unfortunately are compulsory in China even for those not interested. After having spent several years at school studying maths, and probably also a few years of chemistry and physics, I don't really see the value of spending the first year of the degree learning these to a slightly higher level. I mean, it's not that maths isn't useful, but I suspect most undergraduates, in China at least, already have a good foundation in maths. To then learn series and limits, group theory, calculus and so on I don't think adds a lot of value. Also, as a foreign student at least, most people will be very familiar with computers. The kind of computing courses offered are things like how to use Microsoft Word and Excel, Flash and so on. The things that one actually uses one already knows and are thus unnecessary to be forced to learn, and the other things are not useful. So, in my opinion, it is not good for a first or any other degree, especially when it wastes a year of time and tuition fees.

[gato]

2. Take a normal 4 year BA degree, along with normal chinese students. This will obviously be a stronger degree. He

can then decide to find work, either in China, or the UK, or other countries. The c hance of doing a Masters

degree would be taken at leisure later on.

I'm leaning towards the second option for the same reasons Roddy stated. But can you tell what subject he's thinking of studying? We might be able to offer more specific advice if we know the subject area.

[joshuawbb]

A huge thank you to everyone for your replies, and sorry that I can't write a real reply here just yet as I'm in an internet cafe, leaving in a few minutes.

To add to the topic, the subjects I'm thinking of studying (concerning the second option of studying as a Chinese student) are one of the following: Chinese language and literature, China-international relations, Law (presumably Chinese) and Politics. Finance-related subjects are an option, but maths hasn't been my strongpoint, so that would drag me down a bit.

[gato]

Chinese language and literature, China-international relations, Law (presumably Chinese) and Politics

I'd recommend staying away from studying law in China. It's mostly taught by black-letter law and rote memorization, as opposed to the more effective case studies method.

Politics and international relations are likely to be taught in the same major in most Chinese universities, that is, there isn't really politics as a major as you would have in the UK or US, where politics means a combination of domestic politics, international politics, and political philosophy. In China, a politics major usually means either international relations or Marxism. Domestic politics and political philosophy are both too politically sensitive and are not much taught.

[roddy]

Just as an after-thought - I'm not sure where your Chinese is at the moment Joshua, but it is possible to jump into the third year of the BA for foreigners with a certain HSK result - old HSK 6 or 7, might vary depending on the university.

So if you could get up to that level (or you may be there already) by the start of your course, you could quite conceivably be graduating within two years. Now I still don't rate those degrees very highly, but it'd be half the cost in time and money compared with the other option. That might make it worthy of more consideration.

[thenimblethief]

Roddy.... Josh took and passed the old level 6 awhile ago. He said to me that he is confident enough to take the new level 6 and feels he has a great chance of getting it. I believe that is the equivelent to the old level 9. He is taking it in May. I think Josh left the internet cafe a few minutes ago and had signed out before seeing your last post. He is probably on his way to meet his hubei girl. He had a great time in the mountains with her familywho accepted him wholeheartedly, unlike his ex whose parents were horrified at the thought. I do wince a little when she calls me 'Dad' but Josh assures me that she calls me that becuase thats what she's heard him call me. She speaks good english and is a real sweetie. I hope Josh documents his account of the visit and I do know he has about 600 photos of his trip. Thank you for your kind interest in Joshua's life in China. He loves it there.

Also, thanks for everyone elses input. You are all too kind.

[anonymoose]

If his Hubei girl is calling you "Dad", it's time to start preparing psychologically for a new Hubei daughter(-in-law).

[roddy]

I do wince a little when she calls me 'Dad' but Josh assures me that she calls me that becuase thats what she's heard him call me.

Ha. Next time he goes to that particular mountain village he's going to be coming down married.

[thenimblethief]

Mmmm.....I believe a few sentences that josh had trouble with came from the grandmother. It took a while for him to get used to the fast gutteral dialect. Something that seemed to translate into 'very good child bearing hips' Ha ha!

[yonglin]

To add to the topic, the subjects I'm thinking of studying (concerning the second option of studying as a Chinese student) are one of the following: Chinese language and literature, China-international relations, Law (presumably Chinese) and Politics. Finance-related subjects are an option, but maths hasn't been my strongpoint, so that would drag me down a bit.

For the reasons others have mentioned above, I would not study politics/IR/law/other humanities at the undergraduate level in China. The way these subjects are taught will be very different compared to how they're taught in the Europe/North America (making the possibility of transitioning to a master's degree outside of China quite difficult). Also, the curriculum is likely to contain a great deal of ideology, so what you learn is not necessarily very interesting/useful in the first place. (Obviously, if you want to be a lawyer in China doing Chinese law, you will need a law degree. If you're just looking for "a degree", the above applies.) I'd make an exception for things like classical Chinese/Chinese literature, which by most measures would be best to study in China. In addition, I'd consider stuff like, say, "Japanese/Korean language and translation", for which I'd expect the standard to be at least as high as in the west.

Subjects like math, science, engineering, accounting, finance, economics, etc. are usually taught in a way that's quite similar to how they're taught in the west (often from the same textbooks, even). A large number of Chinese graduates with degrees in these disciplines (from decent universities) move abroad to work or pursue further studies. If you're looking to develop skills that are transferable internationally, I would seriously look into one of these.

Finally, I'd like to remind you that some Chinese universities are significantly better than others. This is important for two reasons. Firstly, it will affect the type of training you get (I'm in the economics discipline, and I happen to know that a good handful of Chinese universities train their students very well and to a competetive international standard. Others provide training which is so-so with a bunch of ideology thrown in.) Secondly (and perhaps more importantly, especially if you're looking to stay in China), university is *the* place to build your social network. Since having a good network is extremely important in almost every aspect of Chinese life, I cannot emphasize this enough. If you attend a highly selective university, it's very likely that your classmates will become quite influential later on. My impression is that foreign students can enter these universities a lot more easily than Chinese students, so that might be an advantage you want to draw upon.

[gato]

I would suggest that he go with subjects like economics that are more technical in nature, but he said above that he's not good in math. In that case, it would be a bad idea to study them in China because most Chinese students in those subjects are very strong in math.

My concern with studying Chinese literature is that it would require a very strong background in classical Chinese, which would take many years to achieve.

He could consider studying business. That's a subject mostly free from the political brainwashing and doesn't require a very strong math background.

[fanglu]

But I'll note that (if I remember right) for those courses the Ministry of Education expects you to have an (old) HSK 8 at the end to graduate. So that's four years of full-time study to reach an upper-intermediate level - not a good use of time.

That's terrible. Surely they mean at the end of the first two years though? Even so it's still useless for the OP if he's already at a similar level.

Anyway, given that and all the other comments, I'm convinced. He should do the Chinese degree.

Slightly off topic - the OP talked about doing a BA, but many of the responses have talked about doing finance, maths, business etc. Are those acceptable majors for a BA in China? In Australia a BA normally only includes humanities (English, history, philosophy, etc.).

[anonymoose]

In China, it is called 本科 or 学士, regardless of what the subject is.

And as an aside, Oxford University call all of their bachelor degrees BA, even for science subjects.

[gato]

Right, BS has taken on another meaning these days.

[roddy]

That's terrible. Surely they mean at the end of the first two years though? Even so it's still useless for the OP if he's already at a similar level.

No. I think the HSK 8 to graduate requirement is a Ministry of Education requirement, but given the HSK mess, who knows. But by way of a couple of examples, and I believe these to be generally applicable:

From Tongji

Those who applying for bachelor’s degree majoring Chinese language possessing HSK Band 5 and having one year Chinese study experience can start from Grade 2, and those who possessing HSK Band 6 and having two-year Chinese-study experience can start from Grade 3.

and Shanghai Uni (off some random site):

in September 2003 the College began to enrol the overseas students majoring in Chinese language for the first time . . . .After the overseas students complete the required courses and get both the corresponding credits and the certificate of HSK 8, that is, grade A at the intermediate level of the Chinese Proficiency Test, they can be granted permission to graduate . . .

These are quite possibly out of date, etc - it's hard enough to find the right sections of Chinese university websites, let alone find the information you want on that section, and with the HSK being such a mess at the moment, who knows. Suffice to say I think those courses teach Chinese at roughly half the rate a fairly motivated student can learn it, and they don't necessarily even do it well.

You don't have to read one single actual Chinese book - it's all BLCU textbooks and the like, right up to the final year. There are "实践" activities where you're meant to practice your language - the only one I heard about involved flying to Hangzhou, having a look around, then flying back.

The universities are perhaps hampered by the fact that if they're going to award degrees they have to follow the MoE rules, and those were probably set some time ago. A revamp of that particular course is unlikely to be a priority for the MoE at the moment either. Some universities may teach the course better than others, but even so . . .

The only way I would recommend the course is if you get up to HSK 6 somehow then jump in for two years for the sake of a quick degree. Or if you're the feckless son of a disappointed Japanese or Korean father who wants to get you out of sight for a few years.