Getting a MA degree in China, in History, Hoping for some help

[paike]

Hey Chinese-forums friends. Long time follower, don't post much.

I've been in China for more than 5 years and I speak Chinese pretty well, read at a high level (can make it through many different kinds of newspaper articles, but not very quickly), etc.

I'm going to start an MA in Modern Chinese history - with a focus on the Korean war. I've started interviewing and recording veterans of that time and really anyone who in their 70's who can talk about 解放前、解放后 differences in life, such as food, clothing, education, etc. I'm hoping to get an MA, spend some time reading newspapers, books, magazines and roll up the sleeves and do some writing.

I was a History major in the states, Modern American.

Does anyone have any experience doing their classes in Chinese and what that is like? I'm really worried because I want to get a PHD in the states later and I hope I can get A's and get something published. I can write in chinese with WORD, no problem.

I'm really afriad I will get a jackass as an advisor who will not help me at all. I recently asked for some advice from old professors and friends, many recommended this way. Its cheap. I can stay in China where I enjoy my life. Many chinese people who are now professors in that states have done just this. I could really improve my chinese, i would think, and bring it too an extremely respectable level (now I have trouble with some topics when I interview those in their 70's 80's, luckily they are very friendly, mostly).

Should I shoot for somewhere really good. I don't think it matters. I have friends here in Shenyang, where I've lived for a LONG time, and I want to study the Korean war, so there are a few great museums and scholars around here, like at Liaoning University. Its something like the 80th best in the country, so nothing great. I could go to Nankai or Jilin university I'm sure. Maybe not FuDan, seems like a lot of BS to go there, not worth the trouble. PLus I like the NE, the people, the food, the climate, etc.

Any advice?

I would really love your thoughts.

Thanks in advance,

Patrick

[paike]

Here is a link with lots of people asking a similiar question, but few answers

Gato also mentions several other links to other Chinese-Forums topics, but I think most people don't really want to go through with it.

I work at 东北大学 in 沈阳. I know A LOT of students who have come, gone, and gotten an MA. But always in Computer related MA's which use American textbooks, obviously in English. Plus there wasn't much advising. It was mainly, have you learned the material or not?

[hbuchtel]

Hi Patrick,

I will graduate this May with a MS in Chinese medicine from the Hunan University of TCM. I started writing about the low academic standards for post-graduate students at my university, but it got too depressing and I deleted it all.

I'll sum it up in one sentence: there will probably be some in the administration who assume you are just there for a diploma, so to a certain degree pressure to do well on exams etcetera will have to come from yourself, rather than from the school.

Besides that, I wanted to mention the specialized vocabulary problem. I passed HSK 6 before entering my school, which is the basic requirement for TCM majors (and, I believe, history majors?), but I found that my Chinese level was still far below what I needed to understand everything in classes and pass the exams (I ended up adding 2 years of classes, for a total of 5!). The main problem was the huge amount of specialized terms that I had never encountered before, and are in no way part of the HSK exam.

Maybe this will be less of an issue for you, as you bachelors was in history and you've already done a lot of listening/reading in that field, but I think it is still worth emphasizing. Before I entered the school I spent one year auditing classes with other foreign students (I was a full-time English teacher that year), and I thought I had a grip on it. However, my first two years were spent taking classes with local bachelors students, and the pace of the courses were completely different than the foreign students' classes.

I agree that getting a good advisor is VERY important. As a foreign student, you will probably be given a choice of all the advisors in your major, and based on my experience I suggest choosing one who has spent some time abroad or is used to interacting with Westerners.

You mentioned that the school you are considering is not highly ranked - based on my experience, there are two advantages to going to a lower ranked school (mine is a 三级甲等 university). The first is that as one of the only foreigners you will have access to the best professors (even at a low-ranked school there will be a few brilliant and inspiring teachers), and the second is that (as one of the only foreigners) you will potentially be in an entirely Chinese-language environment. The main disadvantages are the low standards for foreign students and lack of an academic atmosphere (?) among the student body.

I'm interested to hear what you decide to do!

[kdavid]

@paike

I'm currently going through the enrollment process at HIT here in Harbin. I'm going for an MA in contemporary/modern history.

As someone who has been in China for five years, and already speaks Chinese well, you likely have a great enough understand of the culture to understand how things work here.

To my dismay, but not complete surprise, my experience thus far with this particular institution of higher learning is very akin to what I experience on a rather routine basis: people are disorganized, not sure how to deal with "new" situations, and take a very 差不多 attitude toward things.

For example, I researched through the internet that HIT did indeed offer this program. I sent an email to the registrar, to which I received a reply that they didn't have this major because no one had studied it in two years. I pointed out to the registrar that the information online contradicted her. She never responded, so I went to the office to speak to her in person (I was in a rush for my CSC application).

She told me the major did exist, but I'd need to take the test. I was told a professor would contact me for the test. The professor contacted me about a week and a half later and explained that they didn't have a modern and contemporary history program, but that I could study Marxist philosophy instead, because, by all means, "it's practically the same thing as studying history." *ahem*

Between being asked to take the test and actually taking it, the admissions office told me I had been accepted to the program!!!! I was told I could come in and pick up my 录取书 even before I took the program entrance exam. Hah!

I went into take the test anyway, where, low and behold, I met some Chinese students, all of whom were studying for their MA in... modern and contemporary history?!?!?!

While I waited on the professor to arrive and give me the test, I read through the literature in the office talking about the founding of the history department, the degrees offered, etc. The professor showed up (with five test questions scribbled down on a piece of scrap paper). She typed up the exam and then had me type in my answers (in essay format) using the computer.

I received word yesterday that I have to go in for a second test, and possibly an interview, on Sunday.

I spoke to one of the graduate students after I finished my test. She said that the professors often don't have time to give classes, so they change the class time often. She also said they don't have textbooks. She said the teacher gives a lecture and then tells them to find more information online, usually through free resources they download. I asked how she prepared for tests, and she responded by saying that the teacher gave them the test questions before the test so that they could 背 the answers.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that most of what I get out of this program will come from me and not necessarily a challenging and scholarly academic environment--though there's always hope that once I actually start I'll find a great adviser and/or graduate students really into the subject matter.

We'll see...

[gato]

It should be noted that HIT is primarily an engineering school. I would be more alarmed if their engineering programs were like that, too ("go read Wikipedia on nuclear physics"), but maybe they are. Univerisities in China are in terrible shape. They have been destroyed by the rapid expansion of the last decade (what I like to call the Education Great Leap Forward).

[jbradfor]

They have been destroyed by the rapid expansion of the last decade

Were they in better shape before then, after the Cultural Revolution? [OK, I'm skipping 25 years here.]

[fanglu]

In the humanities at least there was a far more open intellectual climate in the 80s than there is now.

I think Gato is talking about a different phenomena though. The rapid expansion of higher education in the 2000s in fact in some ways resembles the period immediately after the cultural revolution in that it is aiming for a huge expansion in the number of students (proportional to what existed previously) without the faculty or institions to manage this. The difference is now they have lots of shiny new buildings and campuses.

[paike]

@kdavid Thanks for the info Kdavid! Honestly that sounds really bad. I would hope for something more than that. But, I think as was mentioned, some of that might be because its not a school where anyone cares about history. I work now at 东北大学 which this year is the 31st school in China!!! Its an engineering and computer software school. Students regularly go from those majors to: Yale, Columbia, Duke, Michigan. But I've been trying to contact the 近现代历史研究所 for weeks. No one is ever in the office. Turns out they have about 5 students this semester and the teachers are usually at home or somewhere else. Not sure what they are doing. My Chinese friends tell me it would be a bad idea to study history here.

On the flip side, I met a History professor in my hometown state university who is from my city here in china 沈阳 （he's chinese), who studied at the 综合university 辽宁大学 and he said the experience was alright, though he had to go to 北大 library more than once and photocopy/do research, then go back to shenyang and write. I'm thinking more and more, I may need to go to one of the big boys, though I'm really interested in the history where I'm living now. And I love interviewing (essentially a reason to ask really wild and in-depth questions about peoples lives) the people in the 70's about the era.

@hbuchtel Thanks for the reply! 5 years for an MA sounds long. What do you want to do now? That situation sounds pretty good. I think the adviser has to be the most important part. They would recommend what do read and then, help with the writing. Maybe going to a school with a few famous historians wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Years ago I got a 6 on the HSK. So close to the 7, but what kept me back, I can't write. I think I got one character right. I'm worried about tests and things in class, that's probably my main worry. History, writing, research, I'm not worried about that. I'm also concerned about publishing something in Chinese Reviews of history. I'd love to do something that Chinese people would read and hopefully not notice was that it was written by a foreigner (need for good advisor again)

I've heard some really discouring and encouraging things. I'm going to search out some friends who may knows other foriegn students at the local 综合 university.

The most discouraging thing. If I want to go to Fudan, or Beida, I think I will have to wait another year, as their deadlines for students is coming up so soon and I don't have letters of recommendation or anything ready, and then it would be 3 years for a major. Plus I'm probably older than most of the Chinese studiers here. In September will be 6 years in China - six pretty good years, but I think that will help explain my desire to get things done quickly =p.

Thanks

[gato]

The rapid expansion of higher education in the 2000s in fact in some ways resembles the period immediately after the cultural revolution in that it is aiming for a huge expansion in the number of students (proportional to what existed previously) without the faculty or institions to manage this. The difference is now they have lots of shiny new buildings and campuses.

Actually, the period after the Cultural Revolution was a kind of golden era for universities in China. The universities re-opened, and all the teachers returned from exile in the hinterland and what not. There likely were fewer students than before the Cultural Revolution because all the high schools were closed during the Cultural Revolution, and fewer people were educated enough to go to college. So the student-to-qualified teacher ratio probably was lower in the early 1980s than before the Cultural Revolution. There have been many stories in the media about real mentor relationships between graduate students and professors in those years, with graduate students being often invited to professor's homes.

See this article below about the incredible expansion in the number of PhD awarded.

In 2001, about 14,000 PhD degrees were awarded. In 2008, more than 50,000 PhD degrees were awarded, more than the number awarded in the U.S. in the same year.

You can imagine the decline in quality with such a rapid expansion.

http://nf.nfdaily.cn/nfrb/content/2010-09/19/content_16033911.htm

博士培养质量问题—南方报业网

　　1999年以后,随着高等教育大扩招政策的实行,博士研究生教育呈现出高速扩张。从1999～2003年,博士生招生规模年均增长26.6%。1999年全国博士生招生近2万人,2003年招生4.9万人,2004年招5.3万人,2007年招5.8万人(当年在校博士生达到22万人)。

在博士学位授予方面,2001年1.4万人,2004年2.3万人,2006年3.6万人,2007年4.1万人。2008年我国博士学位授予数达到5万以上,甚至超过美国当年博士学位授予数(约5.1万)。

　　2003年教育部直属高校博导平均每人指导博士生15.32人,平均每人年招5.1人。

[roddy]

Another factor is that after the cultural revolution people who'd had their education disrupted got the chance to go to university - but they were a decade older than your average student and had, shall we say, considerably more life experience. That cohort is known as the 老三届

[kdavid]

Jonathan Spence writes that according to the 1982 consensus, 28.2 percent of China's population was classified as either "illiterates or semi-illiterates".

Party cadres at the time weren't in much better shape. 26.96% had not passed primary school, 42.78% had only a junior middle school education, only 21.87% had any senior school education, and only 5.85% had a college degree.

[gato]

Xi Jinping, the next Party General Secretary, was only 13 years old when the Cultural Revolution started. He hadn't yet finished junior high school and was sent to Yan'an to be re-educated. Later, through family connections (his father was the second highest-ranking official in the State Council behind Zhou Enlai in the 1950s), he was admitted to Tsinghua University as a 工农兵学员 to study chemistry. Much later, when he was the governor of Fujian Province, he received a PhD from Tsinghua in Marxism, though it's often referred to as a PhD in law for some reason.

[kdavid]

Does that mean that if I choose to study Marxism that I'll be a historian, philosopher and lawyer?

[gato]

It's the ticket to big time.

[kongli]

I will be starting my Master's in Chinese history next year at 人大。

As suggested by Paike, the advisor you choose will be extremely important, and slightly less so though the name of the school. Though it would of course look good to go to a top University in China, you need to take into consideration what you are going to research and if there is anyone at that school that would be willing to help and facilitate this. I know a guy who did his master's at Beida in modern Chinese history and he told me that his advisor didn't help him edit his thesis at all, no corrections whatsoever. So though he got an M.A. from Beida, he got much less out of the program than if he would have gone to a lower teir school and had a good advisor.

Plus, I think when applying to PHD program in the U.S. schools will be less inclined to look at what school in China you did it at (because they know it is MUCH easier to get into top schools here, so don't think you will fool anyone), and more focused on the quality of your research and that you were actually able to complete a master's in Chinese.

I have been taking some undergraduate course here and I can honestly say the level of comprehension really depends on the teacher. I have teacher's who I can only understand 20% of what they are saying and others who I can understand more like 50-60. Also, teachers here stick to a pretty tight script so if you have done some background reading (in Chinese) about what they are going to lecture on, I find it helps boost comprehension.

Also, as far as I have heard, hand writing is rarely ever in issue in grad courses as almost all of your assignments will be in the form of typed papers.

Grad school students often get done with their course work in the first year -year and half. The rest of the time is spent writing dissertation, finding a job, or preparing for the gongwuyuan test.

[skylee]

I think this is a very interesting thread. I didn't know there are so many foreigners studying for higher degrees in Chinese in mainland China.

But something is not right here. How could the OP who can't write in Chinese study for an MA degree in Chinese? This sound bad IMHO. Or is this really normal?

Years ago I got a 6 on the HSK. So close to the 7, but what kept me back, I can't write.

[imron]

Probably in that context write means physically writing by hand, whereas for an MA, you would be able to type things up on the computer.

[kdavid]

I just did my 复试 at HIT. What a joke.

First, they've changed the department major so that I wouldn't be getting a degree in history, but in 马克思主义理论与法学.

Second, the other 研究生 graduating next semester haven't even started on their dissertations. The two I spoke to hadn't even given it much consideration. When I asked them how they'd prepare it sounded like they just planned on writing a book report.

I'm fully prepared to put a lot of time and effort into studying, researching, and banging out a great dissertation, but only if it's going to count for something.

My main concern is that I'm likely to be in China for at least another five years, possibly more. I don't want to have this huge academic gap on my resume (I graduated with my BA in '05). I was hoping that getting an MA over here would make me look less like a putz.

If the "major" on my degree isn't even remotely related to what I'd like to get my PhD in, am I completely wasting my time?

[gato]

How about trying Harbin Normal University? They seem to have a history department.

http://web.hrbnu.edu.cn/ls/n1005c33.aspx

哈尔滨师范大学2009年攻读硕士学位研究生

[paike]

I think this is a very interesting thread. I didn't know there are so many foreigners studying for higher degrees in Chinese in mainland China.

But something is not right here. How could the OP who can't write in Chinese study for an MA degree in Chinese? This sound bad IMHO. Or is this really normal?

Years ago I got a 6 on the HSK. So close to the 7, but what kept me back, I can't write.

Yeah, I can't write by hand very well. I realize that is kind of odd, especially if you studied chinese in another country where most of the class is writing and reading. I came to China 6 years without any knowledge. I can write an essay with a computer, but not by hand. The HUGE amount of extra time involved remembering how to write went into: my job, my social life, reading and listening. I don't think writing in Chinese would be that useful, or maybe that's just comforting myself. The only time I write in english is when I teach and for shopping lists.

Still thinking about going back to the states for my MA, but honestly I would rather continue to be IN CHINA if im going to be studying chinese history. And, taking Chinese classes in the states at the crazy prices American universities want seems insane, especially now that I'm at the 高下 level of books. At this point, the entire book is in Chinese, I exclusively use a chinese to chinese dictionary. I pay 30 yuan an hour for a teacher who has two MA's here, or I could pay 30,000 dollars for that in America. Might have to bite that bullet though.

Any thoughts?

Time really isn't a factor, I'm more or less a monk and not too worried about time lines.