Has anyone done a masters degree in Chinese Medicine in China? Info please!

[lovelife]

I am just graduating from a BSc TCM course in the UK and am thinking of doing a Masters degree in Chinese Medicine in China next year. Can anyone shed some light on the subject- intensity and consistence of courses, are they full time or part time, will I have enough time to work part-time while studying, which universities are good and which arent, and anything else that you may think of. I know which the top 5-6 universities in the TCM field are, but it would be nice to get some personal opinions of people that have actually attended any of them. Websites of those are so vague, and practically none of them replied to my emails asking for more info. Also, what type of courses can one attend, how much clinical practice you get during study, which are the ones to go for, and which are the ones to avoid; I know you can do many of them in english, but is it better to get a decent level of mandarin first anyway... etc. I've heard the masters degrees in tcm are more about research than clinical practice, but there probably are some courses that give you a decent mix. Anything you can think of will help me greatly. Thank you.

[skylee]

Can you practise Chinese medicine in the UK with a BSc TCM?

[lovelife]

Yes. There is no government regulation yet so you can pretty much do whatever you want. There are a bunch of self regulatory bodies such as British acupuncture council, Association of CM and a few others. Actually, in real life it is not that easy , because in order to get an insurance you need to be a member of one of those self-regulators, and to become a member they need to see a degree (or some document of training at least). But there are still plenty of chinese doctors (and westerners too) that just do it without no formal qualifications or certificates based on something as little as a couple of days training.
Our hopes are that very soon it will all be regulated and only those with 3 or more years of training will be able to practice.

[abcdefg]

... am thinking of doing a Masters degree in Chinese Medicine in China next year...I know you can do many of them in english...

It surprises me to hear you can pursue those studies in English. I know a few foreign TCM students in Kunming and all of them had to learn Chinese. Perhaps it's different for post-graduate study in first-tier cities, but I would sure verify that before making too many plans.

[AcuDoc]

Some Chinese TCM schools have programs in English, or in Chinese with translators provicded. The Shanghai College of TCM used to offer such a course in partnership with an American acupuncture college, but I don't know if they still do. I did some courses at Shanghai in the early 80's that were in Chinese with translators. It's not the way to go if you can help it, the translators made the lectures unwieldy, and the communication during case studies was painful and sometimes inaccurate. Either learn enough Chinese to study in one of the Beijing, Shangdong or Shanghai universities (that would be near fluency, I imagine), or find a course offered in English through one of the Chinese-American or Chinese-British school partnerships.

[lovelife]

I think you can do both a bachelor's and a masters degree in English in Beijing, shanghai and nanjing, plus possibly a couple of other 2-3 places. and it is taught in english as far i am aware, not using interpreters. those places are the biggest TCM education providers and have been dealing with foreigners for many years and have developed tcm programs in english (or I am greatly misinformed). Kunming is one of the second grade tcm universities as they describe them, and I know that they do not offer those courses in english. Actually i did a clinical placement in the kunming provincial hospital of TCM last year so thats how i know that. Plus, regarding the quality of education, even the doctors in the hospital reccomended that i studied in beijing or shanghai as these are the places with most developed facilities. Actually one of my chinese professors of tcm here in the uk, who worked in beijing before becoming a lecturer in the uk said that Beijing and shanghai TCM unis in China are what Oxford or Cambridge are in the UK for science. Nanjing, chengdu, Guangzhou, Harbin also have programs for foreigners, but not sure about details.

It would be great to get some first hand information from people that have actually attended any of those recently.

[Eranee]

Hi Lovelife.

Are you thinking of doing the program on a full time or part time basis?

I know that the NanJing University of TCM offers a part time track (which is heavily researched based), in both English and Chinese. I believe it involves going to NanJing a couple times a year for 2-3 weeks for the class portion and working on your research/dissertation in your home country. I am a TCM practitioner in Vancouver, Canada and have been considering this option as I have a young family and a busy clinic here, making it difficult for me to leave for several years. We have talked about moving to China but this has yet to become a reality. I did live in China a few years ago for a while and did studies at the Beijing University of TCM which was great, and I will contact them as well to look at masters options. In NanJing, they need 4 students for the part time track and the dates are optional. The fella I was in contact with in NanJing is at this address;[njuiec@hotmail.com]. I am considering doing the program in Chinese, but of course with English being my mother tongue, this would obviously be easier (but not necessarily better).

Good luck and please keep us/me posted.

Eran

[AcuDoc]

Thanks for the clarifications. My information is obviously dated, I haven't studied TCM in China since 1983. Good to see that there are more English language programs available now. Nanjing has an excellent TCM school, but the three biggies, as far as I know, are Shanghai, Beijing and Shangdong. The original poster would be getting the best TCM education in the world at any of those four universities.

[lovelife]

Hi Eran, well, thats exactly why I started the topic- I wanted to find out how intense the part- and full-time programs were and any additional details about them too, such as the ones you mentioned. So, thank You very much for the info. Also do you have any idea how long the part time course goes on for, as far as i know the full time is 3 years if i'm not mistaken.

Also, who is this person, whose email youve posted- a contact from the university or a student that is doing the course. Please clarify.

And, do you have any idea whether you can get a long visa if you are doing the part time course, or do you have to apply separately for each 2-3 week spell. It would be great if I could get the visa for the whole period and live in china full time while doing uni part-time. That would mean a lot of free time for work, fun, and travel, as well as study. Ideally I would like to do clinical practice as part of the program too, but doing it part-time does seem lucrative, as long as its not a 6 years course.

Please let us know of any info you get on Beijing uni too. I sent emails to all the big ones, but obviously to the wrong people (the ones listed as the main contacts for english speakers), cos havent got any replies yet... 2 months now...Obviously I'll have to look into again. My plan was actually to go to each in person as part of my travels this summer and decide depending on how i feel while i'm there.

[skylee]

I understand that when people say on these forums that they want to study in China they usually do not consider Hong Kong as an option. But I think you might also consider the programmes offered by the University of Hong Kong (which you can do in English), especially if you are also interested in research degrees (instead of just taught postgrad degree). This webpage is relevant -> http://www3.hku.hk/chinmed/english-course_intro_page_1.html

If I remember correctly one of the members, rezaf, is studying TCM in China. I wonder if he could provide you with more relevant information.

[lovelife]

Ah, thanks, will check it out. I havent thought about it, but i guess i would like to study in a mandarin speaking area, just to get more immersion in the language. plus hong kong is so expensive ,thats another reason.

[hbuchtel]

I'm doing my masters degree (in acupuncture and tuina) at a university here in China, but I'm not sure how well I can answer your questions.

I can respond to one of them, regarding taking the classes in Chinese - as part of the curriculum you will encounter a wide range of subjects, ranging from modern Western medicine to classics written 2,000 years ago, so it requires a fairly high language level. I ended up having to add two years of classes as I failed all my exams the first semester (despite having passed HSK 6 before beginning). So...unless you're willing to dedicate a couple years to language study (a good investment, in my opinion), it would be a better choice to do one of the English-language programs instead.

The 3-year masters degree course for foreign students (including Taiwan, HK, Macao) at my university involves cramming an entire semesters-worth of courses into one month - morning, afternoon and evening 6 days a week. I really don't see how it is possible to learn much that way...but I suppose if you spent the rest of your time in the school's affiliated hospital observing treatments it would be worth it.

Regards, Henry

[rezaf]

Hi

I'm doing my Bachelor's degree at Shanghai University of TCM, so I might not have the information that you need. As far as I know my university only offers short-term courses in English not any degree courses. As hbuchtel says TCM needs a very high level of Chinese. There are students who come here with a low level in Chinese, and although they can pass the exams if they are hard working(because the exams are easier for foreigners), they won't be able to learn much as TCM doctors. Regarding the quality of education in China, I should say I have seen students from Nanjing and Beijing TCM universities too and so far I haven't seen a single person(Chinese or foreigner) who is satisfied with the quality of teaching in China. My personal opinion is that the TCM universities only can offer an opportunity to get to know how things work in TCM and the only students who can really become TCM doctors are those who spend a lot of time reading the ancient books in classical Chinese and those who really participate in doing stuff during the internship periods which also needs a high level in Chinese in order to communicate with 导师 and patients. Finding a good 导师and impressing him or her to accept you is also not very easy, however some students find 老中医s outside the school and give them something between 10000 to 50000 RMBs to study with them. I know an Arminian student who is doing her Master's degree here, however I don't have her email address. So if you want you can pm me your email address so that I can give it to her in case I run into her.

I might be a little bit biased but I think apart from tuina or some technical aspects of acupuncture it's really difficult to learn TCM without knowing Chinese. I recommend that you spend a year or two on Chinese before doing your master's degree in China. As you already have a degree in TCM I'm sure you will have a great chance in getting some kind of scholarship for studying Chinese and TCM.

BTW there are research and clinical majors for the master's degree, so you can choose what you want to study.

[rezaf]

I understand that when people say on these forums that they want to study in China they usually do not consider Hong Kong as an option.

At hospital I saw a student from Hong Kong who was doing his 5th year internship and he told me that they can't do the internship in Hong Kong as there aren't teaching TCM hospitals in Hong Kong and they have to come to mainland.

[lovelife]

Hm, by the looks of it i need to not only learn chinese, which i was going to do anyway, but it seems like classical chinese is the better route into tcm as well. now that seems like a whole new ball game, bloody hell! I did apply for a scholarship and i have indicated that i would like to spend 2 years on the language before the main masters study, so lets see. I guess if I dont win it I'll just come over and start off with the language and then figure out if I'm going to do a masters degree. Actually it might really be a better idea just following a doctor and getting some real clinical experience rather than spending shitloads of money and time on another piece of paper. I did work with a very good doctor briefly last year who invited me to study privately with him if i ever went back to china, so i might just do that. wooow, options, options, options....

Anyway, thanks for the info, guys, its been most useful to hear some first hand stories, feel free to add more if you think of anything!

BTW there are research and clinical majors for the master's degree, so you can choose what you want to study.

Ideally I would prefer to follow the clinical route, not a big fan of spending 2 months in a room writing research. doing my dissertation now and just cant wait to finish it really

[rezaf]

Classical Chinese really opens a new door as those people were the real TCM doctors. There are loads of stuff in the ancient books that are not easily translatable to even modern Mandarin let alone to English. It's difficult to learn classical Chinese but it is possible and as your level increases you will find more and more interesting stuff that are not in the official textbooks. I think for you doing a masters degree in China is not that important(It might be worth it if you find a good 导师） but learning Chinese is. So it might be a good plan that you come here for learning Chinese and studying privately with a good 老中医. However make sure that the tutor is really good as these people might be expensive.

[hbuchtel]

My personal opinion is that the TCM universities only can offer an opportunity to get to know how things work in TCM and the only students who can really become TCM doctors are those who spend a lot of time reading the ancient books in classical Chinese and those who really participate in doing stuff during the internship periods [ . . . ]

Amen to that!

It sounds ridiculous, but I really don't feel like I've started to learn Chinese medicine yet. In these five years, what I've learned to do is use traditional therapeutic techniques to treat patients in an almost entirely Western medical context. This is in keeping with Mao's admonition to "explore and improve" the "treasure chest" of Chinese medicine ("中医药学是一个伟大的宝库，应当努力发掘，加以提高"). The majority of TCM university graduates are simply poorly trained Western medicine doctors who know how to integrate herbal formulas into their WM treatments, but neither understand nor make use of the CM diagnostic techniques.

What I have gained these past years is an understanding of who actually practices Chinese medicine in China, as well as the ability to communicate with and learn from them. Over the next couple years I hope to seek out some teachers who actually think like doctors did when "TCM" was simply "medicine".

btw, rezaf, I didn't know that you were starting from a bachelors degree - that is really great! Some people recommended to me that I study my bachelors rather than masters degree when I was applying to my university, and I have some regrets that I did not follow their advice (related to this thread)

[lovelife]

Classical Chinese really opens a new door as those people were the real TCM doctors

So, it might even be a good idea to go and study in Taiwan, they still use the classical characters don't they.

[hbuchtel]

So, it might even be a good idea to go and study in Taiwan, they still use the classical characters don't they.

That would make it easier, although modern Chinese and classical Chinese are still different in a lot of other ways (vocabulary, grammar, etc).

Nigel Wiseman and Feng Ye are both at Chang Gung University in Taiwan ->

http://cm.cgu.edu.tw/bin/home.php?Lang=en

[lovelife]

hbuchtel, did you do your Bachelors in tcm or did you do something else and go straight into the masters. Also, as part of your training do you learn any herbs as well, or is it just acupuncture and tui na. i would like to ideally do the herbs too, but it seems most masters courses are divided into either acupuncture or herbs