Has anyone done a masters degree in Chinese Medicine in China? Info please!

[rezaf]

tw, rezaf, I didn't know that you were starting from a bachelors degree - that is really great! Some people recommended to me that I study my bachelors rather than masters degree when I was applying to my university, and I have some regrets that I did not follow their advice

As you said the important thing is to learn the TCM's Chinese and finding good 老中医s who can teach you. I'm sure the 2 years that you added have covered those things in the bachelor's program.

So, it might even be a good idea to go and study in Taiwan, they still use the classical characters don't they.

Learning the traditional characters after learning the simplified ones is not a big deal(I did it in a few months). Anyway you will just need to be able to read them, not to write them.

but it seems most masters courses are divided into either acupuncture or herbs

They are divided but it really depends on who your 导师 is. I know two famous doctors in Shanghai who do both when treating their patients and their students can learn both but there are many students who want to study with them and they only choose a few.

[lovelife]

Yea, i was gonna say, it would be a great shame not to be able to use both acupuncture and herbs. its combining them what makes the real difference, I wouldnt want to have to drop either in favour of the other one.

[Eranee]

Hey Lovelife,

The e-mail address I posted is for a fella named Hui who is (I assume) some sort of administration dude at the University. He has been great at responding to me quickly, but he is currently away until April 1st, so I'd wait to write him. He said the program would be 3 years as well (not sure how the full and part time programs are the same length?)

When I was in China I visited the Cheng Du University of CM looking at their masters program, (and also inquired at Beijing U of TCM where I was) but in the end opted to follow a couple 老中医 (older, famous TCM docs) instead, which was probably my best bet. I think that hbuchtel nailed it on the head when he said that he feels he is still not practicing TCM as it's true that most major hospitals and universities in China follow a very western protocol and at times you would think you were following western docs who just so happen to use acupuncture and herbs as well. To get the most out of the medicine I believe you NEED to study the classics, specifically the NeiJing, Nanjing, Shang Han Lun and Jin Gui Yao Lue. Of course there are numerous other classical texts spanning several hundred years but these are our core. Learning Chinese will be the greatest investment you will make to your studies and once you are able to read, you will be blown away with your options. Only 5 or so percent of TCM books have been translated into english, so the options and breadth of info in Chinese is quite astounding.

We have had the 'moving to China' conversation in our household too many times, and not sure when this will become a reality, so for now, the part time basis may be my only option. Please keep us posted as to what you decide,as we may end up in the same group in NanJing

Eran

[skylee]

At hospital I saw a student from Hong Kong who was doing his 5th year internship and he told me that they can't do the internship in Hong Kong as there aren't teaching TCM hospitals in Hong Kong and they have to come to mainland.

But I have come across some university Chinese clinics here (like those of HKU and Baptist University) and AFAIK at least two medical schools here have their own teaching hospitals (not sure if Baptist teaches at the Baptist Hospital). But then I don't really know much about this subject. Perhaps internship is different (legal consideration etc).

[rezaf]

I don't want to change the topic but since all the TCM people are reading this topic I want to ask about the quality of TCM education in the west. The curriculum of the TCM schools in for example the states seems to be much more concentrated on TCM, that's why I have heard a few foreign students saying that learning TCM in the west might be more beneficial as they concentrate more on the traditional ways of diagnosis and treatment. Is it true or is it just a myth?

[lovelife]

In the UK most (if not all) courses include both TCM and Western medicine, but the general emphasis is on TCM. Western medicine is taught in just about sufficient amount for you to learn the names of the major and most popular conditions, and how to diagnose emergencies. Basically they are teaching us to become aware of when we can treat and when we should retreat and refer. Tbh, i think that a certain knowledge of wm is of great benefit if you are going to practice in the west, because still not many people are aware of tcm terminology. so when a person comes in 90% of the times they will come and say - i got an asthma, or crohn's disease or whatever. so you must be able to connect with them on those issues and understand what they are talking about. also most people want you to explain to them what exactly kidney qi def, or stomach fire means. very often you have to explain those diagnoses in western terms. for that reason i think its great to have some knowledge of wm too. in china tcm is so integrated that you will never have those issues, but in the uk , it is normal to even have people being shy of showing their tongue during consultation. and then they ask why, and how and so on.

Also there is another thing- the way of teaching. I have found that a westerner teacher that is really good in chinese medicine, will often explain better tcm theory and its application for us to understand it than a chinese teacher with 20 years experience only in chinese medicine. The westerner teachers are able to translate the theory and relate it to how it applies from a western medicine perspective,plus in class its all about discussions and questions while the Chinese teachers with pure chinese methods stand up in front of you and just talk for hours mostly about what the theory states. of course, there are exceptions,and I was lucky to have had really good chinese lecturers. But most of these have also studied and/or spent years teaching in the west so have pretty much adopted the western way of teaching.

[rezaf]

So were you satisfied with your training in general?

[lovelife]

I think it was good, yes. The only thing that really bothered me was the fact that there has been shitloads of courseworks to do all the way through. so you'd spent more time doing things that you have to do (writing) than things that you want to do and actually help you learn( being in the clinic). That's why i'd prefer a masters degree concentrating on clinical experience rather than on research; or just pay a hospital to hang out with the doctors.

What was really annoying is that we were allowed to attend the clinic as much as we wanted- you could treat patients every day all day if you wanted to, but realistically you'd be lucky to go once a week at the most due to all the writing you'd have to do.

even now, i still have 5-6 of the compulsory clinic days to complete, but i dont think i will be able to go there for anotherr month. dissertation and 3 other courseworks plus 2 exams due in 4 weeks.heheh

[hbuchtel]

Hi, I was just thinking about what you said above, as I've been working my butt off the last week or so writing my thesis - if your goal is to become a better doctor, I really think you should skip doing a masters and just pay doctors to let you study with them.

There is so much about the masters degree that has little to do with being a good doctor... (it is more about how to be a good scientist). By doing clinical research it is possible to make both work for you, but there is still quite a bit of time spent on research design, statistics, and just writing your research proposal and thesis that could be spent in the clinic.

Maybe I'm just feeling this way cause I haven't finished my thesis yet... :blink: ...I'll write again when it is all done to see if I have a different perspective.

Also, I missed your question about studying just acu vs herbs as well - my major is acu/moxa and tuina, but classes in herbs, formulas, internal/external/gyn/pediatrics etc are required. Classes in 'the classics' are also part of this major.

[rezaf]

hbuchtel if you have time can you explain more about your program? I want to know more details about the curriculum and the hours you spent at hospital.

[lovelife]

hbuchtel if you have time can you explain more about your program? I want to know more details about the curriculum and the hours you spent at hospital.

And also how intense is it? Do you have any time left for work etc.

[hbuchtel]

Hey guys, sorry I've been a while about getting back to your questions, it is just that they are really hard to answer... :unsure:

The 'official' curriculum is really far from what actually happens. Basically the first 1.5 years are classes, and the last 1.5 years are spent doing internship and research. Just from memory, in the first two years the following classes were set up for us (apologies for not translating!):

医古文

计算机

内经

伤寒论

金匮要略

温病条辨

中医各家学说

中医科研设计

中医文献检索

中医基础理论

中医诊断学

中药学

方剂学

中医内科学

中医妇科学

针灸学

针灸治疗学

In addition to these classes, one's advisor is supposed to arrange for additional classes in one's major depending on the student's needs. This didn't happen in my case, perhaps because I took two years of bachelors-level classes before beginning the program.

Most students were just around for the one month of classes per semester (they went back home for the rest of the time), but as I was already living here I spent the rest of my time either translating books or in the hospital. I've spent an average of ~5 hrs per day for the last 2 years in the hospital, beginning with the acupuncture inpatient and outpatient departments, and more recently in the neurology surgical department ICU (doing early acupuncture intervention for acute stroke patients) and in the orthopedics and traumatology (骨伤科) department doing my research.

I think there is some requirement for how many hours each student spends in the hospital, but if there it was completely ignored. The lack of enforcement of standards is a really serious problem. It really upsets me that a bunch of people graduate each year with the same degree that I'm getting who really did nothing to earn it. Apparently HK has already stopped allowing students with (only) mainland masters degrees in TCM from practicing in HK, and I'm sure that other regions are going to enforce a similar ban when the state of affairs becomes better known. This is another reason I regret choosing to study a masters degree rather than doing another bachelors!

Sorry this is not a cheerier post. I do feel that I got a good education, including a lot of clinical experience that I probably couldn't have gotten anywhere else, but it involved a lot of struggle and frustration on my part due to the way the system works. Keep in mind it could be different at different schools, and also that I'm seeing a change (for the better) at my school as more young people enter the administration, which is a good sign for the future.

[xiaomaizi]

Hello everyone, I am also intrested in learing TCM in china.

I have learned short term courses in acupuncture and general TCM diagnostic( about 400 hours). I still havent passed HSK but i think i am about level 6.

I am thinking of moving to china to study more TCM, i also dont know if should start from a Bachelor or Master ( I hold a non TCM Bachelor degree) or taking short term courses. for example, zhenjiang univeristy offers one year courses of acupuncture and TCM internal medicine. http://www.zjtcmiec....x.asp?classid=6

I read all of the posts and it made me less clear about which program i should choose.

I would like to hear from someone who already studying or finish studying in china.

Thanks everyone

[rezaf]

I read all of the posts and it made me less clear about which program i should choose.

Do you want to become a TCM doctor or is it just a hobby? If it's just a hobby then you can attend one of those short-term courses and I believe many TCM schools provide them. If you want to become a TCM doctor and open a clinic you might need to check the laws and regulations of your country. In most countries that I know of you need a bachelor's degree or at least a formal diploma in TCM(acupuncture and/or herbal medicine) in order to open a clinic.

If you decide to come to China and start a bachelor's degree in TCM then I have to warn you that in most universities half of the program is about TCM and half about western medicine(which is very necessary in my opinion). Also your Chinese should be reasonably good before you start. I don't know anything about the new HSK levels but you should be able to comfortably read and memorize medical textbooks with a reasonable speed and also you need to have some basic ability in writing. I know many people(including myself) who didn't have a high level in Chinese and got frustrated and confused after a year or two.

As for short-term courses my universityhttp://www.shutcm.co...k5y/index.shtml has them in a few languages including Chinese and English. If you choose the one-year course in Chinese then they will probably let you take some of the important TCM classes with undergraduate students.

If you have a medical degree then they might let you enter the master's program directly but I personally don't think that it's a good idea unless you have a solid base in TCM. In that case it might be better to enter the undergraduate program and see if you can get them to accept your previous credits in western medicine. This way you might be able to finish your degree in 3 years instead of 5. I had a friend who had got his medical degree from Fudan and he was able to do this but I don't know about the graduates of foreign universities.

[lovelife]

Hey everyone, I've decided to revive the topic as i have further questions to all of you in the TCM community.

So, basically, after being in China for almost two years now and finally somewhat getting grips with the language I am again considering going to uni and doing my masters degree in TCM.

Has anyone studied at Nanjing uni, can anyone share their experience about it as I was thinking of joining their masters program (my reasons to choose Nanjing over Shanghai and Beijing: Shanghai is expensive and have that other dialect; I've lived in BJ for 2 years now and want to get out of it; Nanjing's uni is the oldest one, is collaborating with WHO and its international department has operated for many years and is well established, also they offered me a clinically based masters degree route which i'm mainly interested in as opposed to the research based one).

To be honest, i still cant decide whether to invest 3 years in working hard to obtain a piece of paper that might be deemed useless in the west (not many countries respect Chinese certificates) or just stick to my BSc from the UK and invest those 3 years in apprenticeships with various doctors. 3 years ago while still at TCM uni i came to china and did exactly that for a month in Kunming (followed a few doctors around)and found out that doing that would potentially have greater benefits skills wise. However, a Masters degree is a Masters degree after all. Any ideas/comments/suggestions?

How about the 4th big one- Guizhou- anyone knows anything about them? I know some of you have probably completed their degrees since the last time we all talked here( Rezaf and Hbuchtel?), others have probably started studying and have new information on the subject. Please share your latest experiences.

Thanks everyone!

[Eranee]

Hey Lovelife,

Thanks for reviving this conversation, as I am still interested in the discussion. I did reply way back when, when this post was first put up. At that time I was looking into doing a part-time masters degree as well. I live in Canada, have a small family, and simply can't commit to moving my family to China at this present time for a masters in TCM. I do know that Nanjing offers a part-time track for the masters, as does the Zhejiang TCM University in Hangzhou. I know a few people that have done the masters in Hangzhou, and were quite happy with their program. I too though am stuck on deciding whether there is actually any relevancy to doing the masters, and if it will actually do anything for me.

I practice a very classically based style of Chinese medicine, and am concerned that most of what will be taught is typical TCM we were taught in school. this is not what I'm after. I will be going to Nanjing in a couple weeks to follow one of my mentors for a bit and may look into the masters again in order to get an idea of what I'd be looking at.

Best of luck in your decision,

Eran

[skylee]

http://www.scm.cuhk....php?mid=6&sid=9

http://www.scm.hku.h...tro_page_1.html

http://scm.hkbu.edu....tion/index.html

How about studying in Hong Kong? The certificates of HKU and CUHK should be widely recognised I suppose.

[lovelife]

Eran,

Cheers for having stayed tuned in. I hope your trip to Nanjing next month goes well and please do let us know how it all went after you go back home.

Skylee,

Thanks for the suggestion and the links. I have considered this option, Its just Hong Kong is really expensive and people there dont speak mandarin. I think i'd rather do it in china and keep improving my shaky mandarin in the meantime. If i went to hongkong i'd forget all of it in a few months. But money is even a greater obstacle i guess. both in terms of tuition fees and living costs. So yea, i think it has to be China. I was also considering going back to the uk and doing it there for a year with the Middlesex uni, but thats also too expensive.

[2theEast]

Hello lovelife, I am considering attending Tianjin University of TCM later this year. I believe they have two masters degree programs taught in English... http://www.csc.edu.cn/Laihua/universitynewsdetailen.aspx?collegeId=87&id=223

[lovelife]

I am considering attending Tianjin University of TCM later this year.

Hey 2theEast,

Thanks for the details. Do you have any other information about it besides what the website states? Do you know anyone that is doing/ has done this course? Are you going to do it in English yourself? My main concern isn't the language of instruction anymore(....I like to deceive myself) , it is the quality of education and what is students' overall satisfaction with the course. Tbh, i dont believe these websites any more, often they are somewhat misleading, to say the least. They may say that they have a course in English, but then you go there and it turns out that not only there isn't a course in English, but there is hardly anyone that can speak English in the whole place (or, in other cases there is a course in English but it is the part time research based mode, not the full time clinical mode). That's happened a few times on my quest already, so if you are planning that trip you'd better do your homework in depth, which i'm sure you are.