Has anyone done a masters degree in Chinese Medicine in China? Info please!

[2theEast]

lovelife,

I graduated with my Master's degree in TCM. I've heard that Tianjin University of TCM has a solid reputation and has clinical affiliations with several acupuncture schools here in the U.S. Also, I believe that the patient from the documentary "9000 needles" was treated at the teaching hospital connected with this university. While searching the csc website, I noticed that it is the only program that has English by itself under the teaching language...the others have English but also Chinese under the same program. To me, it seems that specialization is unavoidable when going the English language route, either herbs or acupuncture. Also...I do not know when this program was established. Plus...I have not been able to contact anyone who has attended, or graduated from this university. I am only going if accepted for a scholarship, otherwise I will be unable. If I am accepted I will try harder to reach out to some of the practitioners in the U.S. that have graduated from this university for more info. That is sweet that you learned the language...it seems that you have so many more options this way.

[Drzewo]

Hi all,

I dream about studying TCM in China, but I am short with money and courses offered for foreigners are quite costly. I was wondering if somebody knows how to get scholarship? I was wondering if somebody knows whether studying in Chinese is cheeper? Thank you in advance for your help,

All the best,

Drzewo

[2theEast]

@Drzewo...check out this website...http://en.csc.edu.cn/

[GoldenSplash]

So are there any schools in China that teach purely english based tcm programs? Has anyone heard of Guangzhou University of Chinese Medicine, they claim to have a 5 year bachelors program in tcm taught in English. Thanks!

[lovelife]

Ok, I'm happy to announce that I've been selected to do my masters degree at Nanjing uni of CM courtesy of the CSC scholarship council. It's going to be in chinese, which will be a bit of a struggle at the beginning. Good luck to everyone that has contributed to this thread.

[daofeishi]

For those who have talked about their TCM education focusing on research, how does research work in TCM? Is there a focus on clinical trials? Is rigorous statistics part of it? Are double-blind studies and placebo controls used or recognized?

[2theEast]

Congratulations lovelife!! Which program did you pick? I also got the scholarship @ Tianjin University of TCM. It will be a struggle for me as well because I have never been to China and will not be able to visit the school before I go there. However, I was able to contact an English speaking student there to answer some of my questions and give me some much needed guidance. Good luck to you as well!

[lovelife]

To Daofeishi:

As in any other field there is good and badly performed research. The good trials-nicely done randomized control trials (RCT)- involve placebo groups, double blinding (both the sample and the doctor administering the treatment) as far as it is possible, and all other methods known to modern research to reduce chance findings, reduce bias, and to attribute the results to the employed manipulation.

If you are really interested in the subject, open google scholar and type Acupuncture, randomised control trial and say...migraine (or any other disease you would like to look at) in the advanced search. Even better, type 'systematic review' or 'meta analysis' instead of RCT and you can see studies that include a bunch of RCT where they are dissected and evaluated on the basis of methodology, bias and credibility of findings.

in all honesty thou, acupuncture research isnt that convincing about the effects of the therapy. It is not easy to accurately pinpoint how it works and what it does to the body as it seems its effects are on multiple levels. Lots of credible trials repeatedly find the therapy to be no better than sham acupuncture (placebo), but both to be better than conventional treatments. Other trials involving brain imaging have presented results where accurate point needling causes certain impulses to be sent to the brain. That, then triggers a change of brain function and the sending of certain impulses back to the location along pathways that perfectly match those of the acupuncture channels...unlike needling random points or sham needling . Go figure. All i know is there are thousands of people who swear by it and have been cured from things no other therapy has been able to deal with. its a cliche, but it wouldnt be still around if it didnt work, would it.

Also, in any trial, the acupuncture results are dependent on the skill of the doctor that administers it. Then you have the different ways in which every person's body reacts to the stimulation. So, a perfectly planned trial with an experienced doctor and a certain sample will most likely produce different results than the same trial with less or more experienced doctor and a different (or even the same) sample. Not easy to reproduce results. Its not the same as testing the same pill over and over again. I'm not defending it, or anything,trying to be as objective as possible. If anything i'd like to see a conclusive trial that produces indisputable results. Thats very unlikely, however.

To 2theEast:

Cheers man, I picked Acupuncture and moxibustion, and during my preliminary talks with the university i was assured that the program is clinically based (what i want) and not one where i have to bury myself in research papers for 3 years (what i clearly dont want). Congratulations to you too, Tianjin is a nice place, only a stone throw away from Beijing, and i hear the TCM uni there is good. Well, if you havent been to China before, then, prepare for the experience of a lifetime. It's a roller-coaster ride that is never boring and never fails to surprise.

[roddy]

Lovelife, could you maybe update us on how you're getting on in Nanjing? Would be interesting to hear, plus it's obviously very valuable for other prospective students...

[Strolch]

Hi Lovelife and all other TCM students

 

First of all, I am really sorry for posting offtopic, but I am glad that I found some people, who have experience in what I am planning to do in my future. I think this is the best place in the forum to post my questions.

 

 

@lovelife:I tried to write you an PM, but I do not really figured out how I can do that. So I thought a good way to get in touch with you is this thread.

I would like to know a bit about your experiences of TCM schools in the UK. Are there many schools that offer a Bachlor Programm for TCM? Is there a "best" school in your opinion? How authentic was the education? Do you have tips for me, if I go to the UK to study TCM?

 

 

About my situation:

 

I want to study TCM and I am doing a lot of thinking of how and where I want to do that.

 

After I heard about the Schoolarship, I considered going to China for my Bachlor. The duration would have been 5 years. To be honest I would not like to move to China for so long at this part of my life, I just thought the opportunity to learn TCM in a very authentic way would be great. After reading experiences of Students, I understood that the education is not necessarily better in China. I also understood, that the experience of studying, as well as living is probably much better if I speak basics in chinese. (At the moment I don't speak chinese at all. ) I decided to delay my visit in China.

 

 

Now I am looking for alternatives to make my Bachlor. (I am 22, from germany). Option A is to study Physiotherapie, which gives me a fundation in medicine and anatomy and also allows me to treat people. In germany there are various courses in TCM that you can attain as a PT.

Option B is to go to the UK and make a Bachlor in TCM. Only Disadvantage is, that I have to move away from friends and family, etc. So I want to know more about it. (I am also not sure how to finance to study in england, but this shall not be part of this topic)

 

In either way I will go for a TCM-Master-Degree afterwards. So maybe I could go to China for my master, if it works well with my chinese

 

[lovelife]

@Strolch: 　Hey, this is the deal:

1.       Schools in England: Yes there are plenty, there isn’t a perfect school, all of them have their advantages and disadvantages. A search on Google will probably reveal more than 10.

 

In my experience, the TCM degree at the Middlesex University in London is one of the best not only in the UK but in Europe. I say that not because I studied there but because over the last few years both during/after my time at uni and here in China I’ve met people from all over Europe and discussing our education brought me to this conclusion.

 

Without going into too many details, at Middlesex you have very experienced and inspirational lecturers (as most schools do) that make you study the Chinese names of acupuncture points (most schools won’t). This is of great help when you eventually come to china and realize that when a doctor or a patient says Hegu (LI4) you know what they mean and the guy next to you only knows it as Large intestine 4 which in china makes absolutely no sense.

 

But the most important point is the possibility to attend a busy clinic from the moment you start studying (something not all schools provide) throughout your studies. A lot of schools will offer clinical observation and practice in year 3 or 4 and even those will be at clinics where you can hardly see any patients or  won’t be able to get completely involved in the treatment process. Middlesex has a busy affiliated TCM clinic where you can spend as much time as you want and see as many patients as you want-sometimes up to 5-6 a day. Over the years you are progressively given more responsibilities (year one-just watch; year 2-start needling points that the supervisors point out to you; year 3- you start doing consultations yourself and prescribe and apply acupuncture treatments; discuss and possibly suggest herbal prescriptions; year4- you do everything from start to finish-consultation, diagnosis, treatment plan, etc..). Again, this course isn’t perfect either, but in my experience I think it’s up there with the best, especially in the UK. Students from other universities in the uk and Europe came and joined our course during my time there and all of them said it was better than the schools they had previously attended.I highly recommend it.

 

2.       Doing your bachelors in China. Probably the best idea if you want to study TCM. Through speaking to people studying here I’ve found that the bachelor programs in TCM here are  thorough and demanding. They include many western medicine subjects, even to the point that sometimes you may start thinking that you are studying integrated Western and Chinese medicine at the same time. I personally like this fact (the more knowledge you get- the better), others argue that it dilutes the course and it isn’t pure TCM you are learning. For example the bachelor degree course at Nanjing uni of CM includes subjects as Embryology, Immunology, Biology…all useful general knowledge in my opinion. In addition to that by the end of it you’ll have super badass Chinese, a life skill that is as useful as your medical skills in my opinion. At the end of the day thou, no school has ever produced accomplished practitioners, its what you do in the subsequent years and the work experience you get later on that will shape you as a good doctor. One of my lecturers once said-'TCM is not difficult, it just takes 20 years to learn..'.I agree with this 100%. So prepare for a long ride.

 

There are plenty of scholarships to study in China so it all can be for free to you too.  I’d probably recommend studying TCM here in China instead of a course in Europe if you are really set on doing a bachelors degree in TCM.

 

One thing you need to keep in mind thou is that prior to your TCM degree studies you need to spend at least 2 years studying Chinese(realistically a little longer than that). Most schools here include a year of Chinese studies with the scholarships they so generously offer to us. In my experience studying TCM after just a year of studying the language is suicidal and will make you hate your life. I’ve been in China for over 3 years and am starting to feel confident in my academic Chinese just now. But don’t look at this as wasted time. Life in China can be very generous to a white European (some will call me superficial, but blame the game not the players) from Germany in his early 20s (I assume you are white and a  guy, apologies if you aren’t). Anyone that’s ever set foot in China will confirm that. Easy jobs, lots of girls, parties and meeting fun people from all over the world are just some of the perks that you can look forward to at your age. Of course it’s not as easy as it sounds- the cultural difference is greater than you can imagine, Chinese food and people might be difficult to get used to or like at times.

 

3.       Alternative degrees to TCM.

 

To be honest, if when I started studying TCM knew what I know now I’d probably go for a Western Medicine degree first and then do a masters in TCM. My second choice would be a Chiropractic/Osteopathy/Physiotherapy and then a masters in TCM.  The reason being that being an MD opens more doors for a TCM practitioner that you could possibly imagine. For example-

1.       Knowledge and respect- Let’s be honest- some things you will only learn in a western medical course, and the credibility that an MD title gives you as a practitioner means a lot. The respect you’ll get from patients or fellow practitioners is unparalleled. No matter how good your tcm skills are, your word will have a much greater weight if you had the MD letters after your name.

2.        Licensing- many countries in Europe (please check and let us know what the current regulations in Germany regarding TCM are) will not allow you to practice TCM or will only allow some of its aspects unless you are an MD. If you want to live all your life in a certain country and that country accepts a TCM degree and allows you to do the manipulations that you want to do that’s fine. I however like to travel and would like to be able to practice all aspects of TCM wherever I wish, something that is only possible if you are an MD, which I’m not, so that's a bit of a downer for me...

 

TCM doctors in China use acupuncture(allowed to use in the UK with a TCM degree,not allowed for non MDs in France, Italy, Spain) herbs (allowed to use in the UK with a TCM degree but not sure what the situation is anywhere else), spinal manipulations (only allowed in the uk if you are a  registered osteopath or a chiropractor, not sure about the rest of Europe ), an extremely useful and fairly new manipulation called xiaozhendao or acupotomy (only allowed in the uk if you are an MD). The list goes on and on… Think about all that. It’s good to have the freedom to use the full arsenal of TCM, something only possible if you are an MD.

 

I’d do MD, osteopathy or chiropractic first for financial reasons too- you get a student loan to do either of those and then a full Chinese government scholarship to do your masters of TCM in china FOR FREE. If you first take out a student loan for a TCM degree then you won’t be able to take a second loan for the other degrees which are all full time over 4-6 years. Physiotherapy you can do either as a bachelors or a masters degree, both financed by the NHS in the UK, so that you can do either first or second. This info is only relevant for the UK. There you go, some simple economics for you too.

 

Studying in the UK you won’t be that far away from your friends and family really. An Easyjet flight will cost you 50 euro, you can go home for a weekend whenever you want. In the uk you are probably going to be able to get a student loan too. Obviously studying in China is a different game.. Coming to China and living here for 7-8 years is a bit of a mission, but the life experience and skills you will gain here will put you in a different league both socially and professionally.

 

Think about it. Mostly think about what you really want to study and what you are going to study first.

 

Let me know if there’s anything else I can help you with. By the way, there is a german girl doing the bachelor of tcm here in Nanjing, I could ask her if she’s willing to get in touch with you and explain things from a different perspective. Obviously, all the above is just my experience, hope it’s useful to you.

 

Another thing, doing a masters degree in TCM here is quite fun, not as intense as a bachelors degree  and you get to learn a thing or two (after all you do get 2.5 years of clinical exposure), but it helps if you have a solid foundation in TCM first and…obviously…if you can speak Chinese (you can do the degree in English, but you’ll only be able to get a fraction of its benefits if you can’t speak the language). Teachers may speak English at school, but in the hospital it’s all Chinese and your clinical internship is what really matters.

 

 

 

Good luck.

[Strolch]

hey lovelife,

 

many thanks for your answer. I really appreciate your advise and take it to my heart. I read your post the same day after you wrote it. I didn't have time to write back until now. I did some research and a lot of thinking in the meantime. 

 

 

"Think about it. Mostly think about what you really want to study and what you are going to study first."

That is exactly the way I am approaching this. So far I figured out that I want to delay going to China, because I want to learn basic Chinese first. I also want to get  a foundation in Western Medicine before I start learning TCM.

 

Chinese Language

I think basics in Mandarin will give me a much better experience of my stay in China. 

Furthermore I heard from TCM-students that knowledge of traditional Chinese is important to understad TCM.

So should I start learning Mandarin and traditional Chinese at the same time? Which one is "more important"? Does it go hand in hand or is it very different?

 

Foundation in Western Medicine

As you said a Western Doctor often gets more respect. And even more important: I need a license to practice TCM. In germany you are only allowed to practice acupuncture if you are a Medical doctor or a "Heilpraktiker". I am actually not sure how I am gonna solve this problem, because my Abitur isn't good enough in order to study medicine. Becoming an Heilpraktiker takes a lot of time (2 years +) and money. And in the end you still have restrictions. I'd love to talk to your friend from germany, about that. If you can talk to her and PM me her email, that would be great.

 

What to start with?

So what do I want to start with? To be honest I don't know.. I found there are different professions, that would give me a good start into the medical field: Physiotherapy, Chiropractic and Osteopathy. But none of them would allow me to actually treat people with Acupuncture. I am doing some research and try to find a way and I will keep you updated. What are your plans by the way? Are you allowed to treat people in the UK with your degree?

 

Bachleor in UK?

So as I said at the moment I don't plan to make my TCM bachelor in UK, but I will keep the schools you mentioned in mind. One mor thing would intrest me about it, tho: If you make a TCM-Bachlor in UK and later a TCM-Master in China, do you learn a lot of stuff twice, since also students participate, that have no background in TCM?

 

And one more thing: I read in an earlier post from you, that you considered doing apprenticeships for three years instead of attending a master degree. What do you think about that today? 

 

The way you describe the life in china makes me really want to go I love traveling and meeting people. I did a backpacking trip through the near east for one year after high school. (you are right btw, I am a white male)

 

Strolch

[entob333]

Hey lovelife, hey Strolch and hey to all the rest of you!

 

First off thank you very much for all of the inspiring texts and information that you have gathered together. It really helped a lot reading through the past three pages of this thread alone.

 

Now I am sitting in a similar boat as Strolch. I am german, 20 years old, lived in Beijing before, but unfortunately I have to admit to myself that my mandarin skills won't be sufficient to study the TCM course in chinese. I have recognized TCM as the most efficient approach to well-being as it combines the aspects of mind, body and spirit into one practice rather than superficially treating patients as it is often the case in western medicine..

 

I have also heard from a dear friend of mine, and a TCM practitioner herself (Chinese, but situated in Germany), that the quality of the studies in english won't be nearly as high compared to a bachelor's course in chinese. Mostly due to the fact that the translations from the classics in TCM are often not truthful to the intended message and knowledge from the original sources..Now I am quiet unsure of what to do. I would not hesitate to go back to China..but I am not sure if I would want to spend 5 years in a degree, which won't give me a good base in theory and practical knowledge in chinese medicine, especially implementing its original, ancient philosophy..

 

lovelife: Just as Strolch already said, I would also be really grateful if you could help me get in touch with the german student in Nanjing!

Strolch: I can only agree to what lovelife already said..living in China is an awesome experience. It really gave me a whole new perspective on life and was certainly one of the most memorable, formative and enriching experiences I have had in my life so far.

 

I am generally interested in alternative ways of healing and I am just looking for a way to set foot in the field..I believe the rest will eventually follow. If any of you guys have other suggestions regarding other approaches, which would guide me along the right path into alternative healing, I'd be immensely grateful to your contribution..

 

Much Love and Appreciation,

 

Alex <3

[Angelina]

Go to Macedonia! My government is trying to invest in alternative medicine and they are planning to open a Center for TCM in my hometown.

 

From what I have heard, you need a degree in Western medicine and then they will send you to China for further education. At least in my country, you won't be able to practise TCM without a degree in Western medicine. Maybe you can go there and study medicine for five or six years while learning Chinese on the side. Then you can spend two more years studying TCM in China. 

[Angelina]

http://www.ugd.edu.mk/index.php/en/students/international-students/important-information-for-foreign-students

 

Just in case anyone is interested. 

[Strolch]

Hi,

 

@entob: A good direction to go into alternative Medicine could be Physiotherapy, Chiropractic or Ostheopathy. Taking classes in Qi Gong and Reiki could be good for you to learn more about healing.

 

@Angelina: Thanks for the link I do not really find anything on the website, that is directly connected to studying in China. I also did not find the requirements for studying Medicine, yet. However, I will write an Email to the Student Service. Maybe it will help me to become a doctor

 

 

just a small update, to let you guys know how about my decision:

 

I understood that beeing a doctor means that you have to devote your life to it. It cannot be your work, it has to be your life.

Eastern Medicine cannot be seperated from Western Medicine (WM). Having a foundation in WM and knowledge in Chinese Language is very important when you want to learn Chinese Medicine. So I decided to get educated in WM first, in the meantime learn some Chinese as good as I can, and specialize in TCM afterwards.

 

I would go so far, to make an Medical Doctor, but unfortunately my Degree is not good enough, so it might be a problem.

My second options are Physiotherapy, Chiropractic or Ostheopathy. I personally prefer Physiotherapy, because I practice Karate since I am a kid and I always wanted to become a teacher. I think Physiotherapy lets me build a bridge between TCM as Medicine and Karate as a Sport.

 

So I am still looking for some options to become a MD. Maybe I will find a way. In the meantime I will enroll for Physiotherapy.

 

I want to list some more general PROs and CONTRAs for Physiotherapy (compared to MD)

+You have a lot of practical education

+Study PY takes only 4 years. MD almost twice that time

+There are many Courses and Seminars for PT to learn Accupuncture

+You learn Anatomy very well

+In many countries you just have to pass a test, in order to have permission to treat people with accupuncture

-Most clients will come to you with Physiotherapie problems --> You will always stay a Physiotherapist, not a "real" doctor

-The work of a MD is taken more seriously / is more respected

-You get less Money

-You might have no permission to treat without restriction (differs from country to country)

[Angelina]

I only know that a TCM Center will be opened in a few months. I don't know enough to endorse them, it is your decision. You said you have problems because of your Abitur, so you can try and see what they tell you.

 

Will you be allowed to practice TCM with a degree in Physiotherapy (plus training in TCM)? Or you have to be an MD?

[Strolch]

Hi Angelina

 

I just wrote to the school, that you send. I did not get a really helpful reply.

They asked me to write again in a few weeks, because there are many changes going on for froreign students. So for now I will sign up in germany.

 

I can practice as an PT if I become a "healing practitioneer". Most countries seem to have the option that you can treat people after you passed a test (accupuncture board test). However, you will never have the same freedom as a Medical Doctor...

[shuoshuo]

Hi everyone, looks like I missed out on the discussion. I am currently studying Chinese Medicine here in China, I just started last year. I am doing it in Chinese, but still having a hard time with the language (even though I have already done about 3 year's of Chinese language). Even if you have passed HSK6 it will still be very difficult because you will be learning medical vocabulary that you might not even know in your own language. So there's a lot to learn.

 

At my uni, they teach you basic TCM in the first year, and A LOT of Biology and Chemistry. If you choose a degree in TCM you have to learn many modules taken by students studying Western Medicine, it has a high theory requirement. However, if you choose to major in Acupuncture then Chemistry is not compulsory, and it is more of a practical/hands-on degree.

 

I DO NOT understand people who would want to take this degree and learn it in English. You will be learning words and saying words that you don't even understand (because some Chinese words are impossible to translate accurately). Your resources will also be extremely limited to those that have been already translated to English. It makes as much sense as learning English by using Chinese language. Plus, it would be quite funny to meet a Chinese Medical practitioner who can't even speak Chinese. That's almost scary.

 

Here in China, after you complete your degree you will have to sit for board exams if you want a license to diagnose patients and be free from the 'superior' attending. In your final year you get to spend it at the hospital doing the internship and you can choose which department you want to work in, e.g. cardiology, pediatrics, etc.

 

I feel that many foreigners doing this are from countries...esp. Asian countries that already accept TCM in their culture and see TCM practitioners as 'real' doctors. Where I'm from, TCM is still very foreign, so I am actually taking a huge risk by doing this. I'm sure many of you hear can relate. I also am still unsure about what the possibilities of employment will be after I graduate, and if the board exams will be necessary for me to sit for. Acupuncture seems to be more widely known as THE TCM method. If you ask non-Chinese to visit a Chinese doctor, they would expect to undergo acupuncture. Unfortunately, that is not my major.

[lovelife]

 

 

 

Hey guys, sorry for the late replies...

 

 

And one more thing: I read in an earlier post from you, that you considered doing apprenticeships for three years instead of attending a master degree. What do you think about that today?

 

In terms of getting practical clinical knowledge I still think this is true. Bottom line is, if you are doing an academic course there are a lot of things that you'll have to do besides doing your clinical internship- exams, research, writing of the research paper... all of which will require you to dedicate a lot of time to doing those tasks at home, sitting at a desk instead of seeing patients or studying what is relevant for you. I've been spending a lot of time in the clinic over the last few months but now the time is coming for me to start working on my research so i can see how I'll be able to attend the clinic and see patients less and less in the coming months and I'll have to spend more time in front of the computer.

 

However, this is the only way you can get a Masters degree so you have to do it if you want the paper. If I hadn't got the scholarship for it it I think I would've gone down the apprenticeship route. And in fact, I still think I'll spend a year or so learning privately with teachers once I complete my Masters degree. There is just so much to learn, it's never ending.

 

 

 

If you make a TCM-Bachlor in UK and later a TCM-Master in China, do you learn a lot of stuff twice, since also students participate, that have no background in TCM?

Yes, and you'll be grateful for it. TCM is so vast and difficult to grasp that you'll only be happy to go over the same material time and again. You'll discover new things every time you read a book/ attend a class on a certain subject.

 

 

 

So should I start learning Mandarin and traditional Chinese at the same time?

Start learning Mandarin first, it'll be more than enough to start with.

 

 

 

 

I'd love to talk to your friend from germany, about that. If you can talk to her and PM me her email, that would be great.

We study at different campuses, I haven't seen her for quite some time. I'll let her know when I do meet her.

 

 

 

 

 the quality of the studies in english won't be nearly as high compared to a bachelor's course in chinese.

I agree 100%. If you are studying in China, get your chinese up to speed first and then study TCM in Chinese. Or risk being at the mercy of  lecturers with poor English or  translators that have no TCM background. In both cases lots of important concepts will be lost in translation. I'm not saying that it will definitely happen, but, you know... And, as ShuoShuo said above, if your level is anything lower than HSK6, then just postpone your studies until you at least get to that level or you'll hate your life. It takes 3 to 4 years on average to get up to HSK6 level (unless you get a Chinese girlfriend/boyfriend). It's a long time but it's worth it.