Pre-marital sex commonplace in China

[xiaoxiajenny]

Does anyone think sex without marriage is wrong? I think there is nothing wrong with it as long as you have no regrets. I think our grandparents would say that's really immoral, but we don't belong to the same generation, do we?

But on the other hand, just as Roddy said “I'm not sure it's the change in attitudes alone--more practical factors like the number of young people leaving their families to work in big cities, more affluent people being able to live alone, accommodation being private rather than danwei-provided. Plus places like nightclubs and bars where you can meet people outside of your social circle, as opposed being jieshao-ed.” I think that's really true. More and more people (from other province) are coming to Beijing--studying or working...They are away from their hometown. If they don't treat themselves as People, so who cares? Perhaps their families care for them but it doesn't make sense. They just live together. I think there's nothing wrong when two hearts get together but if one wants something(like money, house, car and some intangible things...) from another, then I don't think it's a good thing.

I can see some couples(boy/girlfriends) are hugging, kissing each other during the way work and home and somewhere, everywhere! I think it's ok as long as I don't feel disgusting. I'd like to see some perfect couples(I mean if the boy is handsome and the girl is pretty), I think people like to see bueaty scenes. But there are some people from countryside, I don't know whether the problem is they don't care about their personal hygiene or that's their habit. But they are really smelly. I think love should be beautiful and purity at least clean. I don't even mind the nationality, age, skin color(except black man)...I think if they like being with each other and feel comfortable, it's ok.

As for the rest, many Chinese girls are dating foreigners. So sometimes people would say that they are bad girls just because they are dating foreigners. But not really, I don't think the girls who dating foreigners are all bad girl. Two of my colleagues married Chinese woman and someone has Chinese girlfriend. They are fine. But one thing is true--more and more Chinese are becoming very open-minded now.(esp.teenagers) Really! Some girls want to make friends with foreigners, as long as they are foreigners, they don't care about anything else, they just regard dating foreigners as their goal/achievement. A girl asked me at a party:“ how did you find this guy? he's pretty handsome. I wish I could find a foreign boyfriend as well.” I told her“ It depends on destiny(btw,I do believe in that), if you just want to find a foreign boyfriend to show that you are special, then you will probably find that you don't have a foreign boyfriend for long.”I think true love stand the test of time.

But I agree, there are some bad girls indeed. I remember one of my friends (well I don't think she is my friend) has told me that:“ I don't care anything, at least he's a foreigner, I can learn some different cultures from him and practice my oral english though I don't have the chance to be his girlfriend...” I was shocked when I heard that. My heart was bleeding, inside me, at that moment. I don't think that boy has known this until today I post up the article here.

A very funny story: there are love affairs in middle school and high school in China now, my friend has told me that one day, a boy and a girl are dating in the forest near their school during the lunch break, some “big mouth” have told their teacher where the two students were, and the teachers are really crazy I think, they took the camera with them and followed the students to the forest, caught that two students and took a picture, and later posted the picture up to the bulletin in the campus to warn other students. Crazy teachers!!!

Anyway, love and sex are natural things I think, people should enjoy them, but I remind my friends make sure the person you fall in love with is really worth loving then everything you do is meaningful. A hearty wish to everyone here and good luck!!

P.S. If I said something wrong, please let me know!

[Riverstown]

To paraphrase an old saying, "I want either less premarital sex, or more opportunity to participate in it."

[wushijiao]

I think this issue is fairly complex, and before discussing whether premarital sex is good or bad, I think you have to consider why it's happening. Here are a few of my thoughts:

1) The Breakdown of the Village System. China's social control seems to have always required a good amount of scrutiny and lack of privacy on the part of gossipy neighbors and the government. Your village neighbors knew who went and came from your house, thus barring any premarital kinkiness. This stifeling system, to some degree, was carried on in the danwei times by the CCP. Now in Shanghai, you work at a private company travel to another part of the city to live, and are completely anonymous to carry out whatever wacky fetish you dreamed about before.

2) The Rising Age of Marraige. It used to be that you got hitched as soon as possible. Most of my Chinese friends say they want to get married between 26-30. Is it really possible to stay "pure" and physically loveless until your in your 30's? I suppose it is for some.

3) Increased incompatibility. Sorry if I offend people here, but what would people have in common 30+ years ago? "Hey, you like the stuff we get on food rations? Hey, So do I!" "Do you like the only propagandistic entertainment available? So, do I! Hey baby, you look hot in that blue Mao suit and the short hair!" Back then, perhaps, only matters of character could disuade possible mates from getting married. Now, there is still the matter of character but also questions of taste in music, food, fashion, travelling styles and other factors. Money sometimes brings problems.

4) The influx of Western media but not the morality. Any Hollywood DVD can be bought on any street in China, often showing questionable morals. However, the moral basis of Western culture- plurality, democracy, and most religions are either restricted or banned. In other words, China bans Western puritanism (for better of for worse), thus wrongly giving the impression that Westerners simply hump each other all day long while resting from drive by shootings, which is what people might think after watching Sex in the City and whatever the latest Rock movie is.

[yonglan]

and is, among other things, a critique on the puritan values appartaining in the USA at a certain time in history.

Or maybe the whole history of the country

But here I do want someone to understand is not the story itself, but the heroine's situations in story is quite similiar to some women in real life.

But that's the whole point. It is the puritan or prudish mindset that caused her such grief. It is the dismantling of that attitude that has changed things.

No matter premartial sex or adultery after marriage, almost all the moral responsibility must be blamed only on women in China. So I wonder if men can consider the poor and bitter soical situations on Chinese women's life and no words like "premarital sex the more the better" again!

Well, not in Taiwan. Men are also very much blamed for these things. My textbook had the word 花花公子. I asked my teacher and language exchange partners for an analogous term for women. They all claimed there was none. I still don't know what playgirl is in Chinese, but I believe there are definitely as many of them as playboys. Seems to me that in Chinese society as elsewhere, much of this is blamed on men.

Bob Dylan Thomas has made an excellent point. It is a lack of knowledge that causes problems. When people don't know about sex and sexually transmitted diseases they're more likely to unintentionally get pregnant or get some disease. Ask any Westerner in Japan about the appalling lack of condom use among young people, particularly young women. Ask those young women and you find they haven't a clue about many basic aspects of disease or even their own bodies.

has told me that:“ I don't care anything, at least he's a foreigner, I can learn some different cultures from him and practice my oral english though I don't have the chance to be his girlfriend...”

Yes, and this refers also to what I was saying to Student Young. In Taiwan, there is longstanding myth that most foreign men go to bed with a different Taiwanese girl every night. I heard it all the time. Aside from the fact that it's not even close to true -- most foreign men I've talked to sat that Taiwan is not an easy place to meet women -- the amzaing thing is that when I say to people who spout this myth, "Oh, then what about these Taiwanese women?" they look at me as if they never thought of that.

caught that two students and took a picture, and later posted the picture up to the bulletin in the campus to warn other students.

Incredibly sick

thus wrongly giving the impression that Westerners simply hump each other all day long while resting from drive by shootings

I thought that was true

a very disturbing article about the activities of the Bush administration in spreading lies about safe sex, contarception, AIDS and gays was published in the Guardian today, worth reading:

Yeah, but he's not the president of China.

[Quest]

They all claimed there was none. I still don't know what playgirl is in Chinese, but I believe there are definitely as many of them as playboys.

水性杨花，风尘女子？

[yonglan]

Thanks, Quest. I'll ask around about this phrase. I wonder, though, isn't there anything shorter than an eight character phrase?

Ask any Westerner in Japan about the appalling lack of condom use among young people, particularly young women. Ask those young women and you find they haven't a clue about many basic aspects of disease or even their own bodies.

According to NHK News, Japan is the only industrialized country in the world where the number of new HIV infections is still increasing.

[Quest]

isn't there anything shorter than an eight character phrase?

风尘女子

水性杨花 is an adjective.

[yonglan]

Thanks, again.

[Comrade Yixian]

People, we need to stop thinking of life as a bloody corperation. We have a few short years on this planet and we really can;t afford to place restraints on ourselves left right and center. Life is to be experienced and sex is one of the strongest. Sure sex can be destructive, but it can also strengthen the intmacey and connection between human beings that don't necasserily want to marry.

It's extremely oppresive and dangerous to hold biology in restraints with feudal restrictions. The psychological damage that could occur widespread to a nation devout to pre-marital sanctity could be huge. I think we need to put our feet back on the ground and realise we are animals subject to the same biological processes as every other, to try and break those could be immensely damaging.

[confucius]

Confucius say: 恐怕 biologist with feet off ground likely copulating with giraffe!

[woodcutter]

Many, many societies have tried to practice pre-marital abstinence. The outcome of this is no mystery, just read a history book. Or study one of the many societies which still do. There are both negatives and positives, but it is silly to try and scare-monger about it.

Anyway, I wouldn't advocate complete pre-marital abstinence. I was arguing with someone who said "the more sex the better". I think there could be some middle ground.

[owen]

I feel like I might be missing something here. Why has xiaoxiajenny not been beheaded (in the online sense)?

I can see some couples(boy/girlfriends) are hugging, kissing each other during the way work and home and somewhere, everywhere! I think it's ok as long as I don't feel disgusting. I'd like to see some perfect couples(I mean if the boy is handsome and the girl is pretty), I think people like to see bueaty scenes. But there are some people from countryside, I don't know whether the problem is they don't care about their personal hygiene or that's their habit. But they are really smelly. I think love should be beautiful and purity at least clean. I don't even mind the nationality, age, skin color(except black man)...I think if they like being with each other and feel comfortable, it's ok.

Is there any way to link this whole post to the 'racism' thread for immediate dissection. As far as understanding Chinese ignorance I think 'we have a live one here!'

P.S. If I said something wrong, please let me know!

You wouldn't know even if I told you.

Student Young I also can't understand. The fact that she misplaced woodcutters stance suggests to me that she is more like a robot trolling the discussion for strings of words, the writer of which she can feed her precepts to, rather than someone listening to the whole of what is being said, letting it penetrate their consciousness (indeed even copulate with their views) and respond accordingly with something new that might not have otherwise been realized (born).

I think sex is enormously complex and can affect things in unpredictable ways, and as such one should try to be weary of it. But that is all.... just be weary. As Dylan suggested, having the ability to discuss these topics and be open about them is key. Inflexible attitudes towards it will never suffice. And that a puritanical approach is flawed needn't be restated or proven. And I think it is ironic when woman take on a puritanical view to sex as I think it is not really in their favour. That is to say, I think it almost without exception leads to more miserable existences for woman than men.

Also, I don't think sex is amoral. I don't think anyone should be building arguments on that assumption without a well-explained reason on why it is necessarily so.

[vinhlong]

And I think it is ironic when woman take on a puritanical view to sex as I think it is not really in their favour. That is to say, I think it almost without exception leads to more miserable existences for woman than men.

Could you please explain this?

[morningthunder]

Xiaoxiajenny,

I'll let you know that racism is wrong.

MT.

[owen]

Quote:

And I think it is ironic when woman take on a puritanical view to sex as I think it is not really in their favour. That is to say, I think it almost without exception leads to more miserable existences for woman than men.

Could you please explain this?

I know nothing about anthropology. It just seems to me that the societies that have more restrictive attitudes towards sex also have more cases of woman being treated unfairly or taken advantage of. I thought this was sort of generally accepted with arab nations acting as the prime example.

Just a basic 'sex is empowering to women' argument. To be honest I can't pin down why i think it is a sound argument since as i previously mentioned i think sex is too complex an issue due to its pervasiveness. Nonetheless this argument seems to work in my mind somehow and i still say attitudes like the one studentyoung expressed are counter-productive.

[vinhlong]

Personally I think sex is something special, and should be treated as such. If a woman wants to save it for someone special (husband), than good for her. I don't see why that would lead to a more miserable existence? It should be her choice, not something which she is forced to do.

I'm not in favor of the liberal approach of the more sex the better, nor am I in favor of a supressed approach. I think everyone should chose for themselves. However I think sex is also something which takes quite some responsibility, and should be treated with such responsibility.

Please don't take it personal, but the arab nations example isn't a very solid argument in my opinion. It's like pointing to one of the countries where democracy is a total failure and claiming that therefore democracy isn't a good political system.

In a society where women are repressed, sex will take a puritanical approach, but taking a puritanical approach doesn't mean women are repressed. It's like saying if it rains, the floor gets wet. If the floor is wet, it has rained.

I don't believe in 'sex is empowering to women'. I believe men and women should strife for a harmonious relationship, where they are able to express themselves freely.

A succesful man is only succesful because of his life partner's support and sacrifice. Similarly, a succesful woman is only succesful because of her life partner's support and sacrifice.

[wushijiao]

I have to say that I agree with Owen. It seems to me that in almost every society that I know about which is very judgemental about premarital sex, the women always get humiliated and publicly condemnded more than men. There seems to always be a cruel double standard.

I think the Arab example is good because although most women choose to be in submissive relationships for religious reasons, some women don't. Those women don't have a choice. That's why plurality is better. Many people have suggested that the best way to fight radical Islamic fundamentalism is through feminism. I agree (but I think that's a bit off-topic from the original debate).

In America or even China now, women have more control over their own lives. By the way, I was driving through Louisiana listening to religious radio one time and I head a program talking about the religious glory of women being submissive towards their husbands. These women believed that it was holy to be obidient to their husbands, and that this was what God intended. Sex before marraige was certainly out. And this view might be much more widespread than you think. Fine with me. Do what you want with your own life. But don't force those values on me.

[vinhlong]

I think no society should be judgemental about premarital sex. And even if in almost every society which is very judgemental about premarital sex, the women always get humiliated and publicly condemned more than men, having a cruel double standard, I see no causal relationship between a woman choosing to hold puritanical standards (not having pre-marital sex) for herself, and putting herself in a bad situation.

I think the Arab example is good because although most women choose to be in submissive relationships for religious reasons, some women don't. Those women don't have a choice.

I still think the Arab example isn't a good one because the discussion was not about a situation where women don't have a choice, but where women do have a choice. It wasn't about submissive relationships either, but about pre-marital sex.

Many people have suggested that the best way to fight radical Islamic fundamentalism is through feminism.

I may be just a simple mind, but I don't see what this has to do with the discussion.

If a woman chooses not to engage in pre-marital sex for herself, not because God, society, or anyone else thinks she should, why should it be wrong? Why should it lead to a more miserable existance? It's not forced upon her, nor is she forcing it upon anybody else... I understand the sentiment, I just don't see the logic

[wushijiao]

If a woman chooses not to engage in pre-marital sex for herself, not because God, society, or anyone else thinks she should, why should it be wrong?

Chooses. That's the important word. Otherwise, I agree with 100%.

[ExpatObserver]

I have not been to China but the chinese women one meets in North America aren't excatly throwing themselves at American males.