Why is this place so lousy for haircuts?

[amandagmu]

even when I'm quoted a price in ENGLISH?

[imron]

I've spit on cabbies who drive me five minutes and want 50 yuan or more.

I threw a bottle at his face.

I'm sorry, but I don't think there's any excuse for this sort of behaviour. Strong words, sure, but spitting on someone or throwing a bottle at their face?

[Lu]

You're not seriously expected to haggle over a popsicle? That's just a waste of everyone's time.

I sometimes wonder about the little yoghurt cups. Price seems to vary between 3 and 5 kuai, depending on location, but I've never ever heard a Chinese person haggle about it.

[rezaf]

When it's about a few kuai I usually don't haggle but I have seen a lot of Chinese people who do that. I also do it sometimes in 菜市場. In 菜市場 you can always see lots of people shouting at each other in Shanghainese over a few kuai and when they they agree on a price they suddenly become friendly again. Anyway the point is that if you are not satisfied with the price you can always haggle it down and there is no need to get angry.

[Kenny同志]

Like most of you, I don’t like haggling at all. It is the vendor who knows everything and we as buyers are in no position to know the right or reasonable prices, especially when we are new to a place. The honest vendors are many but the dishonest ones are enormous too. They’d try to play their tricks on whoever they smell blood on. Personally I have encountered such dishonest vendors a few times mostly when I came to a new place. As a Chinese national, I feel very disgraced whenever I see or hear such things happen. It’s very obvious to everyone that if we set a price that’s reasonable both to the vendor and buyer, we will save lots of time. No need to haggle and both parties would be happy.

The tendency to haggle is perhaps part of the Chinese mentality. This is not good. Beside that, we Chinese as a nation have to dump many other bad habits. E.g. we should place wastes in the right place; we should keep quite in restaurants; we should queue without cutting lines; we should rinse the toilet after using it. And of course I know China is notorious for food safety problems and bean curd (豆腐渣) construction projects. All these are a shame on us and I hope we can get rid of all of them as soon as possible.

[adrianlondon]

threw a bottle at his face.

You haggled down the price of your anger management course too much.

[abcdefg]

Anyway the point is that if you are not satisfied with the price you can always haggle it down and there is no need to get angry.

But one needs to negotiate the new price before the haircut, not after. I agree that anger is usually counterproductive.

[rezaf]

The tendency to haggle is perhaps part of the Chinese mentality.

But it's fun

[anonymoose]

As far as I'm concerned, haggling is a separate issue. It can be a nuisance, but in principle, when a deal is reached, both parties are willing. If the seller starts at a higher price just because they think they can fleece you, you still have the option to either accept or decline.

On the other hand, clearly advertising a price, and then trying to charge you above that price on the assumption that, just because you are a foreigner, you are unable to read the price, is dishonest and condescending.

I would have happily paid 20 yuan for the haircut on the prior understanding that that is what would have been charged. But since the price was clearly advertised as 10 yuan, there was no reason for me to expect to pay any more. Then they try to make out that I'm in the wrong, until it becomes plainly obvious to them that I could read exactly what was advertised in the window and they had no choice but to give in, but to add insult to injury, they do so as though they are doing me a favour.

In my view, that's no different from short-changing someone just because they appear to be blind and you assume they won't notice.

[jbradfor]

The fact that it's part of the culture doesn't make it any less annoying!

To me, the most interesting part of the movie The Story of Qiu Ju was exactly that point, that Chinese will rip off anyone they can, and the more out-of-town you are, the more likely you are to be ripped off, with non-Chinese being the ultimate out-of-town-ers.

China certainly isn't alone in this. But there are plenty of countries that people do not, by and large, cheat their customers.

[abcdefg]

In my view, that's no different from short-changing someone just because they appear to be blind and you assume they won't notice.

When I first visited Kunming in 2007 I stopped to have a chair massage in Wangfujing Walking Street where a dozen or so blind masseurs were set up under shade trees hard at work. The price quoted was 20 Yuan and I agreed. My Chinese was not very good back then and it was extremely difficult to understand the man's rapid, dialect-laced speech.

After the massage I gave the man my 20 Yuan and walked off well pleased. He examined the bill very closely then started after me, white cane in hand, shouting for me to stop. Soon I was surrounded by several blind masseurs in white lab coats who were all addressing me in an unpleasant tone of voice.

Someone who spoke easier Putonghua appeared and explained that we must have "re-negotiated the contract" while I was in the chair. He had apparently asked if I wanted him to continue for a longer time and I had grunted in assent. So I now owed him 50 instead of 20.

I apologized and paid up, resolved to be much more clear and definite about such things in future visits. But I felt pretty low as "that evil foreigner who tried to cheat the blind man out of his due." Local bystanders probably went home and told their kids about the incident over supper.

[Yang Rui]

Chinese will rip off anyone they can

The tendency to haggle is perhaps part of the Chinese mentality

I think the above quotes are a bit harsh on the Chinese. People love to think China is unique and special, but it isn't (or at least, only to the same extent that everywhere is unique and special anyway). These tendencies are found everywhere in this sort of economy - in Western countries before the birth of the supermarket and chain stores, the same thing happened. People in Western countries often complain about how supermarkets have destroyed their wonderful street markets, but they have forgotten that in the old days market traders could often be unreliable and sneaky.

[Kenny同志]

Yang Rui, I am sorry if my remark was too strong. I was just 恨铁不成钢. I hope some day the vendors will not quote absurd prices and buyers will stop haggling.

[xiaocai]

But Kenny, some people, such as my mum, just love bargain. There is nothing wrong with that. I just failed to see any problem in amandagmu's case. The seller quoted a price much higher than the market average, and if you are not happy with it, get it from some other places then. She did not force you to buy it, nor did she tell you that her price is the most reasonable you can get. And even if you don't like haggling, there are plenty of places with prices clearly listed so you can buy what you want without the hassle. But I think what is not acceptable is when seller try to extort you on the basis of (presumably) asymmetric information, like what happened in anonymoose and abcdeg's cases. Those are obviously cheating and should not be allowed.

But I also don't think it has anything to do with "Chinese mentality". Who does not want to make the most out of what they have got? Look at how some of those big companies control the resources and monopoly the prices on a much larger scale that will make your 20 RMB loss like a drop in the ocean, and yet they have nothing to be blamed of because they also set the rules... Admittedly our market is much less regulated so there are 豆腐渣工程 and 食品问题, and that is why we do need you work hard on these problems, instead of blaming all these dishonesties to "Chinese mentality".

And to jbradfor, I don't know how much you know about Chinese culture and how much it annoys you, but I just don't think the movie 秋菊打官司 deals with any of the problems in this thread.

[jbradfor]

Then we must have seen different versions of the movie. In the version I saw, when 秋菊 went to the big cities, she was ripped off several times, for example when she hired the transportation (I forgot from where to where and in what city....) and was charged about 5x the "going rate". Was that not in the version you saw?

[kongli]

The constant attempts to cheat me to bug me so much, probably because prolonged exposure has cultivated a pretty strong indifference. Also the fact that Chinese people also have to haggle and can be cheated out of money makes it a bit more easy to swallow as well. I mean if your going to cheat one of your own out of a couple kuai it only makes sense that you would try to take me for a few more.

What gets under my skin though is when they act like you are being unreasonable for haggling and make some sort of comment about how favorable the U.S. dollar to yuan exchange rate is, like every foreigner is being paid in U.S. currency (I wish!). Its as if they are trying to convince you that it is okay that they are screwing you over. Haha, now that I think about that it is kind of funny, I will try to maintain such an attitude next time!

[xiaocai]

@ jbradfor

Hmm, so I watched it all over again since it has been quite a few years I have seen it last time. For all that I could see, she was cheated once when she went to 西安, by the old taxi driver's trick. Of course what interests you the most in the whole movie is up to your personal preference, but I just want to say that our focus on this particular movie, and probably the way we observe Chinese culture as a whole, are quite different.

[Kenny同志]

Xiaocai, I am sorry for my strong words. But anyway, here’s my thought.

I just failed to see any problem in amandagmu's case. The seller quoted a price much higher than the market average, and if you are not happy with it, get it from some other places then. She did not force you to buy it, nor did she tell you that her price is the most reasonable you can get.

That’s true but very likely, that’s not the whole story. I am quite sure the seller quoted a much higher price because he/she assumed Amanda was a foreigner who didn’t know much about anything in China therefore to his/her mind, Amanda ( the buyer) would be more likely to accept a much higher price than the seller would have quoted a Chinese customer. This is unacceptable, at least to me.

And even if you don't like haggling, there are plenty of places with prices clearly listed so you can buy what you want without the hassle.

Agree

But I think what is not acceptable is when seller try to extort you on the basis of (presumably) asymmetric information,

Unfortunately, this might be the commonest case.

But I also don't think it has anything to do with "Chinese mentality".

My bad.

Who does not want to make the most out of what they have got?

Fine, but we should be honest and 童叟无欺(be honest with everyone, don’t even take advantage of the elders and kids).

[skylee]

I agree that we should be honest.

[jbradfor]

Of course what interests you the most in the whole movie is up to your personal preference

Let's just say that the rest of the movie didn't interest me that much ;) I just remember seeing that part and thinking "YES! Chinese cheat other Chinese as well, it's not just foreigners!", and felt a bit better about the times I was cheated. [i also thought there were a couple of other times that she was cheated in the movie, but it's been a number of years for me as well, and I likely mis-remembered.]