八仙的传说

[Pravit]

Hi,

I found some Chinese children's books and I'm trying to read them; unfortunately, I can't use a Chinese dictionary very quickly yet. Specifically this character on the first page has eluded me. What's its radical? I tried looking under 長 and also 彡and 冂 but I couldn't find it. Any help?

http://www.freewebs.com/pravit/char.jpg

By the way, a question about Chinese dictionaries. The online one I'm using(from Mandarin Tools) lists this radical 艸 as six strokes, yet I have another (paper) dictionary which lists it as four. Which is right?

And if anyone has time, perhaps you could clear up what the first sentence here means?

http://www.freewebs.com/pravit/page1.jpg

I understand 汉钟离 is the name of this guy, but the rest is a bit unclear. 身材 - stature? 魁- chief. 梧- wu. My dictionary lists it as a type of tree. Does this mean he's as big as a tree, or is that the name of a clan that he's the chief of, or what? BTW, is the language in this book pretty normal Chinese, or do Chinese fairy tales have a tendency to use weird language? My experience with Russian has taught me that children's books are actually some of the worst material for new learners due to their strange language/subject matter.

Thanks for any help!

[marcopolo79]

1. 髯 = facial whiskers, beard, moustach (the radical is 髟,which is always related to hair)

The grass radical 艸 is, for some reason I can't remember, listed in it's original seal script variant using six strokes even though characters will only have the 4 stroke version 艹. The only other character that shares this special distinction is 玉, which is written as 王 when in radical form (i.e.珍). Any dictionary using traditional characters will list these two radicals using the full stroke count.

魁梧 is an adjective describing 身材, it means big and tall.

I would suggest you forgo the fairytales for some easier reading. I don't mean to be rude, but the vocab is pretty literary, and will not aid in your learning the basics. It's not like another Indo-European language where you can learn through literature, it requires a more systematic approach to learning the fundamentals, then you can broaden your knowledge by expanding the breadth of your readings.

[Pravit]

Thanks for your reply! I agree about the fairy tales; in other languages they seem to use pretty difficult language at well. What sort of reading would you recommend? It's kind of hard to come by Chinese books around here...

[roddy]

I realise getting hold of a lot of these materials would be difficult for you, but your question inspired me to write this up

[yiyongboy]

我怎样才能把英语搞好呢，唉，学了那么多年还是那样烂的英语

[HashiriKata]

我怎样才能把英语搞好呢

Come here regularly to read, help, ask questions, etc., and you'll soon find real progress. Even if you are not sure about posting in English, just post in Chinese as you've done.

[Pravit]

Thanks, Robby! If I could find children's books like that, I'd buy them in a snap, even if I didn't intend to learn Chinese

[Pravit]

Yep, I know you discouraged me from it, but I have nothing to read until the textbook I ordered comes in. Thankfully I'm reading a bit faster thanks to the new Chinese dictionary I got, which lists a lot of those two-character phrases. Anyhow, this is what I got out of the first page. Could anyone check if I'm understanding this correctly?

汉钟离身材魁梧，须髯飘洒，身穿青道袍，手要芭蕉扇，逍遥自在，在成仙之前，他有一段不平凡的经历。

汉钟离身材魁梧

Han Zhong Li was big and tall

须髯飘洒

his mustache/beard waved about. Not sure what the 洒 is there for, although I imagine 飘洒 is one of those two-syllable expressions with two words meaning roughly the same thing put together. It's not listed in my dictionary, either, but the IME picked that combination immediately, so they must go together.

身穿青道袍

he wore a blue "Dao" robe(is a 道袍 some special style of robe? The IME picked that combination out for me as well).

手要芭蕉扇

he waved a palm leaf fan in his hand

逍遥自在，在成仙之前

This part confused me. I've put them together because I suspect that the 在，在 is some sort of construction I haven't encountered yet. Anyhow, from what I understand of the first part,

逍

disappear

遥

faraway

自

self?

"He disappeared to a faraway place"?

在成仙之前, 他有一段不平凡的经历。

Before turning into an angel, he had an unusual experience.

When you say the vocab is literary, is it just the vocabulary, or is the grammar and style of this little book also literary? And is there a distinction between modern literary Chinese and Classical Chinese? Do modern novelists write in this style, or do they write in colloquial Chinese?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'd appreciate any help.

[sunyata]

逍遥自在 - here means free and unrestrained

I think you got almost everything else right....I would just point out that 在成仙之前 is not "before becoming an angel" but "before becoming an immortal" maybe it's the same thing - i dunno

[Pravit]

Thanks, sunyata! Which part of 逍遥自在 exactly means "free and unrestrained"? I saw a lot of combinations with the character 逍 that had nothing to do with disappearing, so I really had no clue on that one. And what's with the 在 on the end?

About angel/immortal they're very similar things. All angels are immortals, but are all immortals angels?

[sunyata]

逍遥 - free, unencumbered

自在 - free, unrestrained or also "at ease, comfortable"

自在 is a set two-character adjective (in this case), so you should not consider 在 seperate. Of course you could, but then you would have to look in some etymological dictionary for an explanation of how this word originated

[Pravit]

Actually, both 逍遥 and 自在 are in my dictionary, so I guess I wasn't looking hard enough(well, 自在 kind of threw me off). So it's a combination of two-character adjectives that mean roughly the same thing?

Is the second 在(well, really the first one) paired with 之前? I am unaware of such a construction in the spoken language(although I don't know much of it) so I am assuming this is a feature of the literary language.

[sunyata]

yeah, combined they pretty much mean the same thing, but it seems to be a set expression...

oh, and sorry i overlooked your question about the second 在

you were right, "在(X)之前" is a set grammatical construction meaning "Before (X)..." As far as I know, it is not used much in the spoken language, but instead the 在 is dropped and the 之前 remains。

[Pravit]

Thanks for the explanation, sunyata. BTW I haven't encountered 之前 in my books yet, though they did use 以前.

I've ran into some character that I just could not find. Maybe someone can identify it for me? The closest matches I could find were 将 and 將, but they just don't look the same to me. Please pardon my shoddy MSPaint job.

http://www.freewebs.com/pravit/char2.jpg

[HashiriKata]

BTW I haven't encountered 之前 in my books yet

Just think of it as 的前

I've ran into some character that I just could not find. Maybe someone can identify it for me? The closest matches I could find were 将 and 將, but they just don't look the same to me.

What could it be without a context? My guess is 将 （Jiang4, Windows may make it look different from the printed form）, meaning General/ Commander in Chief (but remember to include a few other words surrounding it to make the identification easier. )

[skylee]

手要芭蕉扇 (X)

手搖芭蕉扇 (O)

[Pravit]

Yep, Hashiri, I think you're right, since the picture shows him on a horse in front of a bunch of soldiers. The sentence is:

汉钟离原名叫钟离昧，曾经是项羽军中的将官。

This is what I understood:

Han Zhong Li was called formerly Zhong Li Mei. He used to be the "Xiang Yu" army's main general.

The IME offered 项羽 as a combination, but I am quite sure that it is in neither of my dictionaries. Is it a name of an army or something?

And about his former name: "Han" is his surname, and "Zhong Li" his given name, right? So how is it that his surname used to be "Zhong" and his given name "Li Mei"(with Zhong and Li being the same characters)? Did I miss something?

Skylee: Thanks, I wasn't paying attention when I typed it in with IME.

BTW, I'm still curious, what is a "dao" robe? And could someone tell me more about literary Chinese in general? It seems to me kind of strange that they would write a children's book in that sort of language...

Also, there's one more character I can't find. I looked under 車, but it wasn't there. Also tried 土, and some others, ditto.

http://www.freewebs.com/pravit/char3.jpg

[sunyata]

"dao" robe - Daoist robe - i.e. a robe worn by Daoist monks and hermits.

The character is 韩 han2

[Pravit]

Ah-ha! I was suspecting that the bit on the right was the radical, but I could not find it under the four-stroke radical section of my dictionary, since it lists everything by traditional characters(it was listed under "韋"). Thanks!

BTW, does anyone know a site where I could see simplified/traditional radical equivalents? It gets mighty hard to use this dictionary sometimes, especially since they put 阝 under 阜. I mean, come on, how would I have ever guessed that was the same radical?

[skylee]

項羽 is the name of a prince/king (項 being the surname). He was a really famous figure in Chinese history. When Qin Dynasty fell, he and 劉邦 fought for the throne. He was 西楚覇王. 劉邦 was 漢王. He was beaten by 劉邦, who established the Han Dynasty. Have you heard of the story of "Farewell to my concubine"? The "concubine" is 項羽's consort.

漢 in this case means 漢朝 (Han Dynasty). (If you google for it you will find websites saying that 鍾離 and 鍾離昧 were not the same person.)

I am unable to view the characters via your links.