那里 & 这里 - which tones? nàli or nàlǐ, zhèli or zhèlǐ?

[kala]

How should one pronounce 那里 and 这里?

Is 里 third tone or neutral here?

I'm getting confused because I keep seeing them either nàli or nàlǐ, zhèli or zhèlǐ. I know that many grammar books have pinyin that is just wrong in many places since they seem to use automated hanzi->pinyin conversion but I don't know what to trust anymore.

Wenlin & Chinese perapera-kun say nàli & zhèlǐ.

nciku: nàli & zhèli

Ross & Ma 2006 - Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar, A Practical Guide: I won't even quote this because the pinyin is so wrong in so many places, but it's never the same as Wenlin.

[renzhe]

Is 里 third tone or neutral here?

I was going to say that both are ok, but all my dictionaries seem to agree: nàli & zhèlǐ.

I find this a bit odd, having never paid much attention to it. It's quite possible that there is much variation in colloquial language, but only one correct standard.

[anonymoose]

I think both are OK, but really, I'd tend towards the neutral tone. In any case, it would sound very odd (to me) having it followed by another 3rd tone syllable and then applying tone sandhi to it.

[chubijia]

It's neutral tone.

[Don_Horhe]

In regular speech it's neutral. IMHO, the only case in which 这/那里 are pronounced zhèlǐ and nàlǐ would be when you actually want to emphasize here/there, as in "No, put it here, not there.", where 里 would be stressed and the 3rd tone fully enunciated.

[Gurulu]

The pinyin of 里 is lǐ.

But as you may have known, it's common that we pronounce 里 as li. On the other hand, even though we were taught in schools that the pronunciation of some characters may change when they are used together with other characters, we Chinese don't pay much attention to the change. I think the reason that lǐ becomes li is that it's easier to pronounce li when we say 这里. But when we want to emphasize the location, we tend to say lǐ. For example:

A: 你在哪儿呢？

B: 这里 li

A: 哪里 li？怎么看不见你。

B: 这里lǐ，这里lǐ，你左手边。

(here, B becomes impatient.)

But to be honest, people will understand you no matter you say lǐ or li. It's not very strict.

[kala]

Thanks for the replies. I just had a discussion about this with my Chinese teacher here in Harbin. According to her, the tone of 里 depends on the speaker; person A might always use lǐ, and person B li.

Also, she said there's no problem changing 里 of 这里 to lí (2nd tone) when it's followed by third tone.

[xiangruyimo]

Generally speaking, places like Taiwan that have less neutral tones in everyday speech will tend to pronounce the second syllable with a tone. Speakers with a more characteristic Mainland accent will more often than not pronounce the second syllable as a neutral tone. However, unfortunately, this does differ from speaker to speaker, on both sides of the strait and across the world, as well as with emphasis (great example above).

[yzl]

Also, she said there's no problem changing 里 of 这里 to lí (2nd tone) when it's followed by third tone.

That's true. The third tone has a turning part that forces you pronounce it more slowly than a second tone. Did you feel very stressful on your vocal band if you wanted to read continuous third tones fast? It can be easier and more comfortable that is to change third tone(s) except the last one to second tone(s) within a string of third tones.

老虎(lǎo hǔ -> láo hǔ) 很久(hěn jiǔ -> hén jiǔ) 很久以前(hěn jiǔ yǐ qián -> hén jiú yǐ qián) and so on...