Pics from the Future World Capital--NOT from a Sci-Fi movie!

[jinwen]

Look at the photos and read the article, then answer the following questions: will the urban development of Shanghai surpass that of Hong Kong or New York City one day in the near future? If so, what might be some of its implications?

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Edit: Link added, article removed (no need to copy and paste entire linkable articles, user deactivated (for the 3rd time, I think) until I get an email telling me he's/she has read the terms and conditions) Roddy

http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501040927/vpt_architecture.html

[gato]

Do you agree or not? Or do you think not only Shanghai will re-acquire its world-renowned dominant position during the 1930s in the economic sense, but it will also become at least a regional hub (representative of East Asia, that is) of exuberant and dynamic cultural ideas and events?

Great buildings alone do not a make a great. I lived in Shanghai as child in the 1980s and remember it as a very pedestrian-friendly city. But the last time I went back, I found all these wide automobile-oriented roads constructed in the middle of the city made it difficult, even dangerous, to walk around. That and the smog were two biggest things I disliked. That's not to say there haven't welcome improvements, as well.

What I'm saying is that you have to evaluate the city from the view of its average resident, not just from that of visitors or politicians who are impressed by shiny skyscrapers. You have to look at it from a micro-level as well as the macro. New York City is a great place to live for many (though not some of the poor) because its convenient transportation system and wide array of cultural attractions. Hong Kong may be similar in that regard. Shanghai may be, too, but you can't judge that from the buildings alone.

As for reasserting itself culturally, Shanghai seems to be far from doing that. Many famous writers (like Lu Xun, Zhang Ailing) and other culture figures were based in Shanghai in the years immediately following the fall of the Qing. But what about now? Who are the leading cultural figures in Shanghai today?

[marcopolo79]

I agree with the above post, as a native New Yorker, I’ｍ very sensitive to and aware of the interaction between the physical sturcture of the city and the aesthetic/creative impulses it induces (i.e. dense=mix=innovation=inspriation). However, what makes places like London and New York great cultural centers, I feel, can be reduced to two primary factors: 1) Immigration 2) Intellectual openness/diversity. Shanghai is sadly lacking on both counts, therefore I don't think the city's cultural scene will provide the stimulus for a the emergence of a global culture capital.

This is not to deny Shanghai it's role as one of the most interesting, exciting, and, in my opinion, beautiful urban centers in the world (the above photos attest to that fact) or it's ascent as a "destination", it's simply a matter of recognizing the fact that in order to be a world culture capital, one has to be firmly integrated into the global movement of both people and ideas.

[jinwen]

I think many huge Asian cities such as Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore, Seoul and Kuala Lumpur all have such problems in common. Tokyo's population is even more homogenous than Shanghai's and the cultural attitudes in Japan are far more traditional than those in China today.

NYC is usually perceived as the capital of the world, because it absorbs and reflects almost every other culture in the world; it has always been a place where people from all over the world meet and share ideas and values. As a result, it became a melting pot of different cultures. It is great in that sense, but when you want to experience distinct cultures from specific cities, you have to travel to that city in order to appreciate the unique characters that particular city has to offer.

[Quest]

Both Tokyo and Hong Kong have very vibrant entertainment industries and consumer culture. There's nothing of the kind in China... with all the censorship in place and diehard conservatives in the government, it will take a long time for china to catch up with the world culturally. Without these things, a glimmering city would not be very interesting.

[ala]

I agree with Quest. Blame the government, seriously. Everyone lives the life sanctioned by the government, that's asking for sterility. People play it safe. But if you've been to Shanghai long enough, you will realize there is very strong potential for cultural achievement among the population. It's not the cultural void people tend to stereotype the city with. After the founding of the PRC, Shanghai was pretty much in a strait jacket, yet immediately after the end of the Cultural Revolution, Shanghai still led the nation to produce some really good cultural works (of which many completely bashed the CR and Great Leap).

It's really unfair to compare Tokyo, NYC with Shanghai today without appropriate context.

BTW, I hate Pudong (most of the photos above are from Pudong), I hate going to Pudong to do errands. It's like a barren swampland-turn-parking lot with green skyscrapers and "green zones." To this day, most local Shanghainese do not see Pudong as part of the city proper.

[gato]

Pudong is too spread out. I like a compact city. Taipei is pretty great, in my opinion.

Capitol of the world? I don't think we need one, nor will there be one. NYC is not it, either, even in the cultural realm. My ideal would be for all people to be open to the outside and be willing to learn from others. No central planning, please.

[Quest]

BTW, I hate Pudong (most of the photos above are from Pudong), I hate going to Pudong to do errands. It's like a barren swampland-turn-parking lot with green skyscrapers and "green zones." To this day, most local Shanghainese do not see Pudong as part of the city proper.

Something similar is happening in Tianhe, Guangzhou. It used to be a suburban farm field, now it has the most skyscrapers and the widest roads, but it's still bland at best. It has been designated as the new city center, but most Guangzhouren don't see it as part of the city proper. To most people, they don't need skyscrapers, they dont need roads that have six lanes. I just hope the city planners can wake up before they mess up the place further, with elevated intra city highways crisscrossing every part of the city, as if everyone lived his/her life in a car. I prefer narrow streets littered with shops on both sides, the old Guangzhou.

[gato]

I just hope the city planners can wake up before they mess up the place further, with elevated intra city highways crisscrossing every part of the city, as if everyone lived his/her life in a car. I prefer narrow streets littered with shops on both sides, the old Guangzhou.

Sounds like what they're doing to Shanghai and Beijing, too. I think these city planners all went to the same school. They might be trying to copy the American suburbs. Yikes!

[ala]

Here's a casual conversation among three Shanghainese on a China-based forum mulling over the lack of Shanghainese cultural achievements and discussing the future of the dialect. The context is the ban of a sitcom that was in Shanghainese, costing investors millions of yuan and has effectively stopped all present and foreseeable future Shanghainese productions.

Someone suggests translating video game audio files into Shanghainese as an alternative to spreading Shanghainese around the city. However, "A" suggests getting the academia involved to promote Shanghainese.

Rough translations follow the original Chinese.

A:

上海那么多大学养着是干什么的？

大学的电影系的学生应该多拍拍上海话的短片然后公开到网上。 难道这还会禁？

带着艺术的口号，徐悲鸿的美女光屁股裸体都可以得欢迎。 如果电影片拍了水平真的是高，还怕是上海话的？

What are the universities in Shanghai for?

The students in the cinema/film departments should do short films in Shanghainese and get their works out through the internet. They wouldn't ban that, right? In the name of art, Xu Beihong's [famous realist painter of the early to mid 20th century] bare-assed female nudes were still welcomed. If they could create talented, high quality films, what do they have to fear for the films being in Shanghainese?

B:

说不定，中国什么事情都有可能发生

It's difficult to say, anything can happen in China.

C:

大概没几天就会得拨封杀脱

The project would probably be shut down within a few days.

A:

现在中央、市政府不就是吃国际名声吗？

既然目前没有政策支持，我觉得上海话、吴语的希望存在创出国际有名的精华文化作品。 让每个上海的家长感到吴语的优势。 上海话翻唱歌曲、游戏机配音、毛毛头节目等 是没有前途的。 我现在就是希望这些猫叫走音的翻唱歌曲能刺激一帮上海人来创出些好作品。

Don't the central and city government dig international fame?

Since the Shanghai dialect doesn't have official support, I believe Shanghainese and Wu Dialect's hope lie in developing internationally-renowned, nationally cream-of-the-crop cultural achievements. Let every Shanghainese parent sense the relevance and advantage of preserving the Wu dialect. Amateur karaoke ripoffs in Shanghainese, audio accompaniment for video games and baby programs have no future or chance in saving Shanghainese. I am hoping that the cat-like screaming and off-tune Shanghainese ripoff songs I am hearing now will stimulate some concerned Shanghainese to actually develop some real artistic work.

B

中央、市政府才不吃国际名声呢，像计划生育被人狂骂，他们还不是说一套、作一套。国际名声对他们根本不重要

The Central and city government don't dig international reputation and fame. Just look at the One-Child Policy that was slammed with international criticism. It's always say one thing, do another thing. International reputation and fame aren't important to them.

[geek_frappa]

Someone suggests translating video game audio files into Shanghainese as an alternative to spreading Shanghainese around the city. However, "A" suggests getting the academia involved to promote Shanghainese.

wow! ... really? is shanghainese important to learn, then?

[gato]

I think the spread of Mandarin throughout China is one of the greatest achievements of the CCP. It's long overdue. How can you be one country if people from different regions can't even talk to each other?

[geek_frappa]

I think the spread of Mandarin throughout China is one of the greatest achievements of the CCP. It's long overdue. How can you be one country if people from different regions can't even talk to each other?

TING SHUO...

speaking the same language does not guarantee good communication.

[naus888]

I think the spread of Mandarin throughout China is one of the greatest achievements of the CCP. It's long overdue. How can you be one country if people from different regions can't even talk to each other?

It could have been done without the media banning of regional dialects (and no where was this ban more enforced than on Shanghaihua and Wu Fangyan, where speakers were already Mandarin-proficient). Just as English is now seen as the international language, would the Beijing officials be happy if Mandarin is banned to better promote English?

The CCP has no respect for cultural and intellectual diversity. Not before and not now even with economic development. If it feels that cultural diversity will get in the way of "one country" then it is ill-fit to be the government of China.

[gato]

It could have been done without the media banning of regional dialects (and no where was this ban more enforced than on Shanghaihua and Wu Fangyan, where speakers were already Mandarin-proficient).

Already proficient in Mandarin? I'm not sure that's the case.

My relatives who grew up in Shanghai in the 1960s were not that fluent in Mandarin. My mom who grew up speaking Shanghainese tells me that she felt awkward speaking Mandarin when she went to college in Beijing.

Kids growing up today are much more fluent in Mandarin because of the much stronger Mandarin-promotion policy that began in the 1980s.

I don't agree with the media ban, but I do agree with banning other dialects in the classroom so that everyone can attain a basic proficiency in Mandarin as quickly as possible. It's that Mandarin is so great, but you do need a common spoken language in the country.