Taiwan Mandarin vs China Mandarin

[yellowpower]

Hi there

Was wondering if there is any major differences between Taiwan Mandarin and China Mandarin, besides the obvious traditional script vs simplified, differences in some vocabulary, regional accents, influence of chinese dialects and geography. My line of thought is not whether one is better or more standard than the other. It's about appreciating the differences.

Has anyone studied Mandarin in both places and can share observations about the differences in writing styles/expressions used in/for newspapers and magazines. Some say that Taiwanese publications are more colorful and idiomatic, whereas the China publications are rather to the point and bland, more functional in language.

The other thing is about so called grammar, just looking at CSL learning materials, it looks like China CSL materials have some very common standard phrases, grammar usage, and language markers in oral and written expressions that appear to be not popular or absent in Taiwanese Mandarin books. Am wondering is this because of the Min-nan yu dialect and Hakka dialects spoken in Taiwan.

Just watching TV dramas from Taiwan and China, while it is Mandarin spoken, it's the choice of words, expressions, and popular expressions that appear very different. Pardon my ignorance and no offense meant, my observation is that Taiwanese Mandarin appears more modern and functional and less cultural historical references, whereas some China shows have a lot of idiomatic sayings and seem very textbookish, and the other extreme is some shows have a lot of modern day slang in them which can make it hard to understand?

So, what then is standard Mandarin or is there such a thing as International Mandarin?

Thanks.

[skylee]

The OP's question has prompted me to wonder ... is there a standard English? I know there are American accents, British accents, Australian accents, etc, and their vocabs and usages (and even spelling) are not exactly the same. Is there such a thing as International English?

[skylee]

This thread is relevant -> Linguistic differences between Taiwan and China

[xiaocai]

Taiwanese Mandarin appears more modern and functional and less cultural historical references, whereas some China shows have a lot of idiomatic sayings and seem very textbookish, and the other extreme is some shows have a lot of modern day slang in them which can make it hard to understand?

You do have your preference, then? I'd say it all comes down to personal preference at the end of the day. Also, I don't think Mandarin is an international language, and therefore there is not such a thing as "international Mandarin", either.

[jbradfor]

is there a standard English?

Not that I'm aware of. Similar to Mandarin, there are per-country standards.

There are, however, well-defined subsets of English, such as Basic English, Simplified English, and Special English. I don't know if these define pronunciation as well.

BTW, is there anything similar to those for Mandarin?

[Hofmann]

Mainland China Mandarin and Taiwan Mandarin are two different standards. They are standard according to themselves. I don't notice and haven't looked for any trends, except that the Taiwanese standard is more conservative in certain aspects of pronunciation.

BTW, there are standard Englishes. Standard varieties do not have to be standardized in order to exist. They only have to be a variety used by a group of people in their public discourse (Finegan, Edward (2007). Language: Its Structure and Use (5th ed.). Boston, MA, USA: Thomson Wadsworth).

[Phil]

Was wondering if there is any major differences between Taiwan Mandarin and China Mandarin, besides the obvious traditional script vs simplified,

The main difference of which I am aware (having friends who come from both) is that, to my ear, the Taiwanese tonal range is considerably flattened in comparison to that used in Beijing or Shanghai. But I would not be surprised to learn that there are many other differences as well.

** Phil.

[DespikableMi]

Different pronunciation standards - http://www.zhongwen.com/x/guopu.htm

Taiwanese-influenced - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_Mandarin#Taiwanese-influenced

the retroflex sounds (ch, zh, sh, r) from Putonghua are pronounced more like alveolo-palatal affricates and fricatives[disambiguation needed].

erhua is very rarely heard (e.g. 混血兒 "hùn xiěer" "mixed race/blood"))

the syllable written as pinyin: feng is pronounced as [fʊŋ] in all tones.

Grammar - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_Mandarin#Grammar

Taiwanese Mandarin: 你有沒有汽車？ (lit. "you have or not have a car?")

PRC Mandarin: 你有汽車沒有? (lit. "you have a car or not have?")

Wikipedia - Taiwanese Mandarin

Try starting off by reading Wikipedia's article on Taiwanese Mandarin here. It tells you the basic informations and if you are interested you can study deeper into that.

[WestTexas]

I don't know about the PRC Mandarin quote you posted Despikable, I think most people where I live (NE Mainland China, Shenyang) would say 你有没有汽车？ or 有汽车吗？ for do you have a car. Or maybe 有汽车没？ But I think the first two are considered the standard here.

[renzhe]

Strictly speaking, the two standards (as pronounced by actors and newscasters) are really close to each other. The differences are really not that large:

- relative absence of the neutral tone compared to the PRC standard. Like 意思 = yìsī instead of yìsi. N.B. Neutral tone still exists!

- relative absence of erhua colouring compared to the PRC standard. Like 好玩 instead of 好玩儿. N.B. Erhua still exists!

- some minor differences in pronunciation, usually due to a more conservative pronunciation of Mandarin (和 = hàn) or other reasons (垃圾 = lèsè instead of lājī)

- pinyin final -eng is pronounced -ong after f, w

The biggest difference is actually not due to the Mandarin standard, but due to the influence of the local dialects. There is a huge variation of pronunciation around China, from perfect putonghua to very strong, barely understandable half-dialect. The Mainland is really strict at promoting the standard putonghua, which has shifted towards modern Beijing pronunciation, and regional accents are used mostly for colouring on TV.

In Taiwan, there is a very strong influence of Taiwanese Hokkien, which has changed the de-facto standard for most people, so the Mandarin spoken by most people is not really like the official standard the newscasters are still supposed to use. This is a much bigger source of differences between the actual spoken standards:

- much softer retroflexes ch sh zh than on the mainland. Sometimes they are completely absent, but this is not correct even in Taiwan

- -er ending loses the retroflex with people who can't pronounce it, so 二 = è, 儿子 = ézi

- some tones sound different, mostly due to the influence of Hokkien. The canonical (falling-rising) third tone is very rarely heard, and there are things like the falling third tone which you won't hear on the mainland

- to me, it often sounds more staccato and less melodic than the PRC Mandarin. The individual tones become more stressed than the sentence prosody the individual characters vary less in length (this has to do with the lack of neutral tone)

- I swear that 其实 sounds like qizi much of the time

- the (sorry!) weird pronunciation of 用, as üèng, with -eng in free variation with -ong as above. I think we managed to trace this to Nanjing Mandarin before the civil war

- EDIT: Before I forget, 'mo' for 'me' is also common

But there must be a book out there which lists this stuff in more detail.

Do keep in mind that much of this is politicised and exaggerated. There are trends, but it comes down to the person. I've met several Taiwanese people who did none of the things above and sounded "proper" from a PRC perspective, and I heard some of the nicest putonghua from people from around Shanghai and Wuxi. It's likely that you'll run into some of it with many teachers, though.

[o7o]

- -er ending loses the retroflex with people who can't pronounce it, so 二 = è, 儿子 = ézi

Is this something you've heard in the south? Because I've been living in Taipei City and county for two years and i've never heard anyone say e instead of er, and that includes exaggerated "Taiwanese" TV accents like 豬哥亮's. Rather, the Taiwan er sounds more like the er at the end of the American "daughter" rather than the mainland er which sounds more like "are." Whereas "e" in Taiwan is a distinct "uh" sound. It might be more subtle, but the r is absolutely in there.

Despite the above features, I must personally stress that the average level of Mandarin here is much higher than any place on the mainland where Mandarin is not the mother tongue, and not inferior at all to Beijing, Harbin, etc. Not that anyone is criticizing Taiwanese Mandarin here, but seeing the other thread where the guy finds the level of Chinese spoken in Taipei unacceptable really makes me think that some people have an extremely idealized view of what Mandarin actually sounds like in the vast majority of the Mandarin-speaking world. <_<

[renzhe]

Like I said, it's just with the people who can't pronounce it (dialectal influence), and I've heard it in numerous TV shows. But it's only one small point.

Mandarin in Taipei is supposed to be relatively good, from what I hear. But Mandarin is the dominant dialect there. This does not necessarily extend to every part of Taiwan.

In the mainland, I have found that the Mandarin level is highly correlated with education and whether it's a developed or rural area. Among urban students/graduates (people I tend to meet the most), it is generally excellent.