Grammar #4: 了

[anonymoose]

HashiriKata, I see what you mean by the differences between 走 and 起床 and 走了 and 起床了. However, I still don't understand what the relevance of "involve any implication on another action" is? (Or was that just included to confuse me? )

semantic nuance, would I be right in saying the 了in your second example is just used for emphasis of the statement, rather than influencing the actual meaning of it? In any case, I'm finding it hard to imagine a situation when anyone would say "Why do you still look so sleepy? Are you up yet?". Surely if the speaker can see that 'you' look sleepy, he would also be able to see whether you are up yet or not, and would therefore not need to ask But anyway, I think I know what you are trying to say.

Thanks all of you.

[HashiriKata]

Or was that just included to confuse me?

No, that confuses me as well!

Seriously, what I meant was that "not enough" or "too much" is a relative term, depending on what it's in connection with. So, 刚 is "not enough", whereas 了 can mean "too much" in relation to what the speaker is talking about or what the thing in question is for (note the contrast/ opposition between 刚 and 了) :

他刚刚四十多岁，还不老。 He's just over 40, still young.

他四十多岁了，太老了。 He's already over 40, too old.

我刚做完四个，还有六个要做。 I've just finished 4, there are still 6 to be done.

我做完四个了，只有一个要做。 I've already done 4, there is just 1 more to go.

By the way, as far as language goes, it's always possible to find some contexts for some sentences, so there's a possibility semantic nuance and I may be on very different things. My replies so far are nothing more than an attempt to explain the incompatibility between 刚 and 了 in anonymoose's question.

[semantic nuance]

anonymoose: Thank you for pointing out the illogical situation. I've already corrected the post. I must have been dozed off when I pasted the sentence! With the native sense, I can only say that 了 emphasizes the completion of the action. That is, 動作的完成, 動作做完了. 強調的是 '做完了'(have finsihed the action), 而不是只是指動作而已 (rather than the action itself only). In 剛剛起床, it is a past action but it emphasizes on the action 起床.

他刚刚四十多岁，还不老。 He's just over 40, still young.

他四十多岁了，太老了。 He's already over 40, too old.

HK, I would go 他剛剛過四十岁，还不老。

[Czech Cara]

This discussion seems to be far beyond my intelectual horizons, but I can add my primitive rule: Many sentences with 了, both sentence and verbal， include the meaning of the English 'already' even though it is not in the English sentence, but it can be added.

It is difficult to try to perceive a logic of a language from another language`s point of view, I guess.

[HashiriKata]

This discussion seems to be far beyond my intelectual horizons, but I can add my primitive rule: Many sentences with 了, both sentence and verbal， include the meaning of the English 'already' even though it is not in the English sentence, but it can be added.

But you've just added a very good point, Czech Cara!

[thph2006]

Man, Now I'm really depressed. As an elementary-level learner I've been struggling to understand the use of 了 (among other things) and don't think I can without having to constantly reference the excellent information in the posts here. For the times when I'm away from the computer can someone recommend a good, fairly complete, very trustworthy Chinese grammar reference book written in English that would be usable by a relative novice but still be pretty complete and remain useful as I progress? One with lots of example sentences would be even better. I've been using the Schaum's Outlines Chinese Grammar and it's way too minimal to be useful.

Thanks, tom

[anonymoose]

The following sentence was written by a native chinese-speaker. How can the use of 了with 刚 be accounted for in this sentence?

不要伤我的心了，我刚才试了几条裤子，结果都因为太瘦而穿不上，我可真的是该减肥了

Also an unrelated question, why in the 都因为太瘦而穿不上 part does 都come before 因为 and not before 瘦? I think I know, but I'd like to see what others have to say.

[chenpv]

How can the use of 了with 刚 be accounted for in this sentence?

Well, to ease things up, '刚'' is not necessarily meant to be isolate in this sentence. A more understandable punctuation is '我/刚才/试了/几条/裤子.'

To complicate things up, that sentence can also be a variant of '我/刚刚/才/试了/几条/裤子.', which could be punctuated like '我/刚/才/试了/几条/裤子.' And of course, the second '刚' is omitted.

[tsaiwinnie]

Aspect is a feature of grammar that gives information about the temporal flow of language. Chinese has a unique complement of aspects: for example, 了 (-le) :

le (perfective)

我(wǒ) 当(dāng) 了(le) 兵(bīng)。 [我當了兵。]

I became a soldier (and I still am).

他(tā) 看(kàn) 了(le) 三(sān) 场(chǎng) 球(qiú) 赛(sài)。 [他看了三場球賽。]

He watched three ballgames (and he probably will watch many more during his lifetime; often used in a time-delimited context such as "today" or "last week").

[semantic nuance]

不要伤我的心了，我刚才试了几条裤子，结果都因为太瘦而穿不上，我可真的是该减肥了

Isn't this contradictory? Too slim to put on the pants? Too slim, so s/he needs to be on a diet? Doesn't make sense at all. Unless, 太瘦 can be used to mean pants in Mainland China.

I would say: 不要伤我的心了，我刚才试了几条裤子，结果都因为太窄/小而穿不上，我可真的是该减肥了

Or : 不要伤我的心了，我刚才试了几条裤子，结果因为(這些褲子)都太窄/小而穿不上，我可真的是该减肥了

剛才=剛剛=just now. Putting on pants happened in the past time. That meant 'putting on pants' had already been finished before the speaker made the statement. It's an action 'ALREADY' been done. So, 了 is added right after the action of '試穿'(try on).

Hope it won't be too confusing!

[roddy]

Unless, 太瘦 can be used to mean pants in Mainland China

Yep, 瘦 can mean too tight for clothing. Too big / loose would be 肥, not 胖

[semantic nuance]

Thanks, roddy! That's new to me. It's good to know the different usages. We don't use 瘦 to mean pants here in Taiwan. We use 瘦 to mean people and animals.

[anonymoose]

剛才=剛剛=just now. Putting on pants happened in the past time. That meant 'putting on pants' had already been finished before the speaker made the statement. It's an action 'ALREADY' been done. So, 了 is added right after the action of '試穿'(try on).

That's exactly what I initially thought as well, but that seems to contradict Hashiri Kata's theory:

The ideas behind 刚刚 and 了 are in fact in conflict here: 刚刚 implies "just/ barely/ not enough (for some purpose)" whereas 了 implies "already enough/ plenty/ too much/ too long (for some purpose)".

[chenpv]

A chinese native speaker told me that in the sentence 我刚刚起床 the particle 了 should not be used.

我剛剛起了床 sounds just fine to me, though suggests quite a different meaning, as in the context of ' Somebody has been ill in bed for a long time. And he is just able to get out of bed.' or ' Guys who take great great efforts getting up on Sunday mornings.'

[James Garrison]

Sorry to dig this old discussion up, but it's really interesting to me and I'd like to add a bit and post my own query.

A) 他生我的气了 - "he has become angry with me." (signifiying a change in someone's mood towards me, perhaps the above could be used to describe why someone suddenly got up and walked out)

B) 他生我的气 - this one just means "he is angry with me" and could mean that he has been angry with me for years or mere minutes.

Is that an accurate description of the use of 了 to describe a change in state/mood? If so, then I could add 刚to A, yeah?

Okay, one more question.

1) 我饿了 - I am hungry/I'm just now feeling hungry

2) 我很饿 - I am very hungry (perhaps it's 10 PM and I haven't eaten anything since an early breakfast)

Is that also a good illustration of the basic use of 了, and could I add "了" to the second sentence, right?

[fireball9261]

不要伤我的心了，我刚才试了几条裤子，结果都因为太窄/小而穿不上，我可真的是该减肥了

Or : 不要伤我的心了，我刚才试了几条裤子，结果因为(這些褲子)都太窄/小而穿不上，我可真的是该减肥了

anonymoose,

"我刚才试了几条裤子" => 了 is completing the verb 试. You need to look at that first. Then, you look at the time of the completion of that verb: "刚才" ==> "just now". Therefore, the action of the completed "trying on" the pants happened "just now".

"不要伤我的心了" => 了 is completing the verb "伤" with the objective noun "我的心". Then, you look at the "不要" ==> "Do not want to" or negative of the following sentence: "伤我的心了", so the whole sentence would be the negative of "complete(ly) hurting my heart"; i.e. "Don't hurt/break my heart!"

"我可真的是该减肥了" => 了 is completing the verb "减" reduce. What is being reduced? That is the noun "肥". Then, you look at the timing, "该', and that indicates a future time.

剛才=剛剛, and 剛剛 could be used in the sentence like 剛才 with the same way of analyzing the Chinese grammar.

In addition, I didn't see the explanation of the following usage for 了.

My husband asked me one time about what are the differences between the term "好的" and "好了" because he heard me say both a lot to my friends and my mom?

"好的" => OK in English with the idea of agreement for some requests.

"好了" => OK in English with the impatience or sometime placating tone of trying to shut the other guy up!

My husband used the proper term to shut up his Chinese co-worker who would not shut up in a meeting at one time. She was on and on in a very angry mode, and no one could calm her down in English (they were all white guys and the objects of her anger ). My husband having the most experience with an angry Chinese woman said to her in perfectly pronounced Chinese, "好了! 好了! 好了!" And she was so surprised that she shut up immediately!!! He was very proud of his nice usage of his very limited Chinese vocabularies -- He had about less than 10 Chinese phrases and about 5 Chinese grammar rules in the close to 30 years of being with me Most of his Chinese phrases and grammars are for Chinese food and dining table manners or to placate me when I am angry. He did use his Chinese to fool strangers who are Chinese that he knows how to speak Chinese and to fool our Chinese friends on the phone into thinking a Chinese is on the line!

[SWWLiu]

My husband asked me one time about what are the differences between the term "好的" and "好了" because he heard me say both a lot to my friends and my mom?

"好的" => OK in English with the idea of agreement for some requests.

"好了" => OK in English with the impatience or sometime placating tone of trying to shut the other guy up!

... [To] shut up his Chinese co-worker who would not shut up in a meeting at one time' date=' ... my husband ... said to her in perfectly pronounced Chinese, "好了! 好了! 好了!" And she was so surprised that she shut up immediately!!! He was very proud of his nice usage of his very limited Chinese vocabularies ...

[/quote']

My variant explanations:

"好的" => Good/Agreed/Yes. I'll do it.

"好了" => Good/Okay. It's done.

"好了! 好了! 好了!" => Okay, Okay. That's enough!

Your husband is a quick study, fireball9261. : )

[Baoman]

Looking at the first posts in this thread, I'd like to go back to an example sentence using 了. Either I'm really tired, or really confused. Probably both... So I appologize for any lack of consistency in my thought-pattern. Let's play with the sentence:

I've studied Chinese for three years.

Originally Posted by Claw

It can be used to express a period of time up to and including the present: 我學了三年中文 = I studied Chinese for three years [up until now].

...

Both types of 了's may be used at the same time in a sentence. Generally doing so indicates that an event has happened and continues to happen. For instance: 我學了三年中文了 = I studied Chinese for three years [and continue to do so].

So we can say:

(a) 我学了三年中文。 I studied Chinese for three years [up until now].

(B) 我学了三年中文了。 I studied Chinese for three years [and continue to do so].

How about:

© 我学三年中文了。 ???

Also, both (a) and (B) seem to include the action into the present. But if I just want to point to the fact that the total amount of years of studying Chinese is three, regardless of when I did it, how would I put it? For example:

I have studied Chinese for three years (but I quit a long time ago).

Do I have to add words like 以前 , (学)过 or 一共 ？

If possible, please try to stick to the same example as much as possible. It makes things easier.

/ Thanks!

[Altair]

a) 我学了三年中文。 I studied Chinese for three years [up until now].

(B) 我学了三年中文了。 I studied Chinese for three years [and continue to do so].

How about:

© 我学三年中文了。 ???

Also, both (a) and (B) seem to include the action into the present. But if I just want to point to the fact that the total amount of years of studying Chinese is three, regardless of when I did it, how would I put it? For example:

I have studied Chinese for three years (but I quit a long time ago).

Do I have to add words like 以前 , (学)过 or 一共 ？

I disagree somewhat with the common descriptions of how these particles work, but below is what I think.

I would translate sentence (a) as: "I studied Chinese for three years." There is really no necessary reference to the present. I think this provides the meaning you are seeking.

I would translate sentence (B) as: "I have studied Chinese for three years." Here, there is an indication of a reference point before which the three years took place. Without context, this point is presumed to be the present. There is an implication that the study may continue past the reference point, but I do not think this is required either in English or Chinese.

As for sentence ©, I do not think that is a likely sentence. If I had to force a meaning, I might guess something like: "(My decision is that) I am studying Chinese for three years now" or perhaps "(It had been decided that) I was now studying Chinese for three years." These are very unusual sentences in American English and cannot mean either "I have been studying Chinese for three years" or "I had been studying Chinese for three years."

Also, the meaning conveyed by the English sentence "I have studied Chinese for three years (but I quit a long time ago)" is almost certainly inconsistent and not grammatical, at least in American English. In American English, this tense (the present perfect) is a present tense and not a past tense. It is incompatible with references to the past except to a very marginal extent in sentences that would be translated with 过 ("guo4") in Chinese. This restriction in American English is unlike very similar tenses in French, Italian, German, and peninsular Spanish, where the equivalent forms are commonly used with references to the past. I think Chinese works completely differently from any of these languages.

Edited March 12, 2009 at 02:33 AM by Altair

[anonymoose]

(a) 我学了三年中文。 I studied Chinese for three years [up until now].

(B) 我学了三年中文了。 I studied Chinese for three years [and continue to do so].

How about:

© 我学三年中文了。 ???

The translations of these sentences are not very accurate. I think better translations would be:

(a) 我学了三年中文。 I studied Chinese for three years. [This period of three years took place at any time in the past, possibly up until now, but more likely, it was a long time ago.]

(B) 我学了三年中文了。I have been studying Chinese for three years. [This means 'three years up until now', but it does not necessarily mean I will continue to do so. Whether or not 'I will continue to do so' can only be determined from context. For example, if someone asks you "你学了多长时间的中文了？", then answering "我学了三年中文了” would probably imply that you will continue to do so. However, suppose you have just quit going to Chinese classes, and someone asks you "你为什么不上中文课了？", then you could answer "我学了三年中文了，这么长时间还没有什么进步，我认输了，不再学了。" (I have been learning Chinese for three years, and after such a long time I still haven't made any progress, so I'm giving in, I won't study any more.) In this case, it is clear that 'I will not continue' to study any longer.]

© 我学三年中文了。 [Perhaps a native speaker could provide a clearer perspective on this one, but to my ears, it sounds odd.]