Grammar #4: 了

[anonymoose]

if 了is used as an indicator of a finished action, then why do some native speakers say '我走了‘ BEFORE they exit at a meeting.

It signifies a change of state or an imminent action.

The previous state was "I'm here", and the new state is "I'm going" (even though the speaker hasn't left yet), so 了 signifies this change.

In fact, with any imminent action, 了 can be used. That's why there are constructiontions such as 快要(verb)了.

[MaLaTang]

ok using le for a change of state is completely understood. now, 对了anyone?

[skylee]

Have you looked at the explanations linked to my post #80? Would the "Fin. Part." explanation help?

[MaLaTang]

yes, skylee, but that is a command, it is an imperative sentence, for ex...去睡了！

im not sure how '好了or 对了can be considered imperative...

[Michaelyus]

In my knowledge of Chinese grammar, I would class the use of 了 in 对了 very much as the modal particle / change-of-state 了 usage. At http://www.ctcfl.ox..../Modal%20LE.htm, under question 4, it states that 了 can be used with the stative verb 对 as an exception to the rule that 了 is used to emphasise a sequence of actions that have taken place, and not to emphasise stative verbs. I'm not sure I fully agree with this analysis though.

I think the Yip & Rimmington "Comprehensive Grammar" explains it in part on page 317 (adjectives as core elements in le-expository sentences indicating reversals) with further applicable points from page 319 (subjective endorsement behind the explanation - expressing appreciation or displeasure, often vehemently). I don't think they mention 对了 as a separate issue.

Usually 对了 is in reference to something the partner in conversation has said, so something like 你对了 is often interchangeable (it can of course be in reference to someone else quoted, so 他对了 is also possible). The change of state is in "you" ... 你对了 implies "you've now got/understood it", "you've done or said something correct", "you've attained a level of correctness". Added to this, 了 adds that endorsement, a sense of the speaker reacting to your newly found and newly attained correctness.

Not sure if that helps in understanding the subtleties of using the modal/sentence-final/change-of-state particle 了. I do think that its niceties are more easily picked up contextually than via formal analysis, just like using the present continuous vs the simple present in English! But it's an interesting question.

[MaLaTang]

"....No, 了 cannot be used to emphasize stative verbs or the complement of degree construction. However, it can be used with the stative verb 对, and with 得多( in the comparative construction)."

duì le tā de zhōngwén bĭ wŏ hăo duō le

对 了, 她 的 中 文 比我 好 多 了.`

...ok, i understand now...对 is an exception to the rule

[hdpxx]

What is the difference between 好的 and 好了?

[Glenn]

I have a sentence where I'm not sure how to interpret 了:

那小女孩把長鬍子的老先生看成是她爺爺了。

After I had gotten past mistakenly interpreting 把 as "grab" here, I thought that the placement of 了 was a bit strange. It seemed to me that it should be placed after 看成, but I was told by an advanced non-native speaker that that would be strange, and that putting it at the end of the sentence was much more common. However, this doesn't appear to be a change of state, which is the use I'm most familiar with in sentence-final position.

I read Altair's first post (mostly) and I felt like I understood why it was strange after 看成, but that understanding proved to be fleeting. I think I saw something about it being used as a strong affirmation, which I suppose makes sense. Would that also explain the 是 there? I was told that seemed a bit strange as well. Can anyone help me understand this better?

[Michaelyus]

那小女孩把長鬍子的老先生看成是她爺爺了。

So this is a straightforward 把 with a "judgmental" complement 看成. If you are using with Altair's framework in post #10, it is evident that the 'endpoint' just cannot be 看成: with respect to what else in the context would the 'endpoint' be? As this is the only content verb, the verbal 了 is inappropriate in this sentence, and I agree it sounds ungrammatical.

So why is there a sentence 了? There is some sense in analysing sentence 了 as verbal 了 on the sentence level, leading from 'endpoint' to 'change-of-state'. The 'change-of-state' 了 used here implies it wasn't always like this; this state has come about, emerged, different to what was before.

I analyse 是 as an ellipsis of 是...的. I think your connection of its emphatic nature is correct; its emphasis on 她爺爺 seems to require sentence 了, as otherwise there would be no justification for it.

So ...看成她爺爺 has a separate focus and implication to ...看成她爺爺了, the latter of which gains emphasis with 是.

[Glenn]

That's right, end-points. OK, I get why it's not natural after 看成, but I don't get the change of state. She went from not thinking of him as her grandfather to thinking of him as her grandfather? Why would that need to be emphasized?

[Michaelyus]

Without 了, that situation would barely even be the default. It could refer to a state that is permanent: she has always seen that guy as the grandfather. Without the 了, either interpretation is possible. (Just because it uses 成 doesn't always imply a process of 'becoming')

However, there are cases in which there is no disambiguation required. The change-of-state is therefore reflective of the interlocutor's stance and is quite indicative, as you say, of emphasis (I think I have made a post about this 'emphatic' use of 了, although that's not really a good name for it).

[Glenn]

Ah, OK. So normally she wouldn't think that guy was her grandfather (default), but she does this time (change of state from default). So I guess this has more to do with background information and common interpretation of events than anything within the sentence. That is, eveyone's going to assume a baseline default (e.g., people correctly recognize their relatives) and any deviation from that (e.g., mistaking someone for a relative) will be seen as a change of state and require a sentence-final 了. Does that sound right?

[Glenn]

I just thought of something. Assuming I'm on the right track above, would the use of sentence-final 了 be appropriate anywhere the speaker feels things aren't as they should be? For instance, suppose I'm looking up a term in the dictionary, and I expect it to be there, but I get a result that says 找不到. Would it then be appropriate to say 找不到了？！ indicating my surprise at this change of state from what I had assumed the default would be?

Actually, if that's the case, that would explain a lot, like 太好了, 糟糕了, 對了... It also helps me understand the 是. So I could also say 是找不到（的）了, indicating a sense of "can you believe that? That's ridiculous, isn't it?" couldn't I? Or am I reading too much into this?

Thanks for the help, by the way.

[Altair]

I am not an expert in these things, but here is how I view it. I personally find the concept of "change of state" correct, but confusing and often inadequate as a diagnostic tool. Another way to look at this sentence is as follows:

,

那小女孩把長鬍子的老先生看成是她爺爺 is a proposition you want to use to communicate something. If this is a comment on some other past state or action or about a current state, no new additional aspectual or time information is needed. The listener can get this information from the conversational context that has already been presented. If, on the other hand, you want to use this proposition to describe a past event, more is needed. You need to say that this proposition is a situation that "happened" in order to put it into context. The only way to do this is by additing 了. The meaning would be something like: "(Guess what.) She (then) regarded the long bearded gentleman as her grandfather." The listener understands that this describes an event. The 了 refers to the endpoint of the event and separates the proposition from the present context of the conversation.

If the statement is part of some larger commentary, another purpose 了 could have would be to separate in time this state of affairs from some separate past state of affairs. The sentence might mean something like: "She had regarded him as her grandfather" or "Having regarded him as her grandfather...." Here the 了 would refer to and emphasize the endpoint of the old state of affairs. Without it, the proposition would mean only: "(You know,) she regarded him as her grandfather...(and)...." or "Regarding him as her grandfather......" The statement would just add additional background color along the lines of what would normally be expected.

But 了 does not, of course, have to signal past tense. Here are some examples from Pleco and nciku:

你把我看成什么人了。

Who/What do you take me for?

Here the 了 is necessary to relate the proposition to the speaker's attitude of outrage. The 了 indicates the endpoint of a normal situation and the beginning of mistaken asssumptions that cause outrage. Without 了, the proposition would be taken as a mere statement of established current fact, i.e. "How are you (generally) regarding me?". Although my guess is that this sentence would still be awkward and unusual in Chinese without 了 or some other final particle. People sometimes call this use "emphasis," which I think is correct, but too vague to be useful for learners without specifying what exactly is "emphasized."

我把十块的票子看成五块的了。

I mistook the ten-yuan bill for a five-yuan one.

Here the 了 marks the proposition as marking an event that "defines" a past situation. Without 了, the speaker would be implying that the description of the situation was incomplete and that more could or should be said to complete the picture.

As for the presence of 是, based on usages like the following, I can speculate that its presence is partially redundant, but clarifies that what is being described is a generic or habitual situation, rather than a one-time event. 他总是被看成是个没用的人，什么事情也不会干。 He is always taken as a good for nothing, and is useless.

As for the possible presence of 了 directly after 成, here is an example from page 186 of Yufa!: A Practical Guide to Mandarin Chinese Grammar by Wen-Hua Teng:

昨天他没戴眼镜，把李小姐看成了他女朋友，所以对李小姐说：“我爱你”。

Yesterday he did not wear his glasses, so he mistook Miss Li for his girlfriend and so he said "I love you" to her.

Here the 了 shows that the proposition of (mistakenly) regarding Miss Li as the girlfriend refers to the endpoint of an event that was prior to the speech and that gives the necessary background. If you simply said 他把李小姐看成他女朋友，所以对李小姐说：我爱你”。this could mean: "He said: "I love you" to Miss Li, because he regarded her as his girlfriend. Here there is no endpoint to refer to. If you said 昨天他没戴眼镜，把李小姐看成他女朋友了, that would be a little strange, but mean something like: "Yesterday he didn't wear his glasses, and (from then on) regarded Miss Li as his girl friend. The 了 at the end would signal the end of an old state of affairs and imply the start of a new one. The actual event would not be visualized.

I think you could also have said one of the previous examples as:

我把十块的票子看成了五块的。

I mistook the ten-yuan bill for a five-yuan one.

Here, this event is presented as something isolated, with no clear relationship to anything else unless some kind of follow up is added. With 了 at the end of the sentence, however, we would know that the old state of affairs was over and a new one had started. The effects or importance of the mistake would be left lingering in the air for the listener to imagine.

Similarly, 那小女孩把長鬍子的老先生看成是她爺爺了 leaves the implications of the new relationship lingering in the air. If you say 那小女孩把長鬍子的老先生看成了她爺爺, this sounds more like: "That girl mistook that long-bearded gentleman for her grandfather." This is an isolated event with no implied aftereffects.

The change in meaning from "regard" to "mistake" is a result of forcing an endpoint on the process of "regarding." If you replaced 看成 with 看作, I think you would have no choice but to put 了 at the end. I think 看作, unlike one meaning of 看成, can describe only a state and not an "event" with an endpoint. The state can, however, like all states, describe a situation that marks an endpoint to another state.

[Altair]

I just thought of something. Assuming I'm on the right track above, would the use of sentence-final 了 be appropriate anywhere the speaker feels things aren't as they should be? For instance, suppose I'm looking up a term in the dictionary, and I expect it to be there, but I get a result that says 找不到. Would it then be appropriate to say 找不到了？！ indicating my surprise at this change of state from what I had assumed the default would be?

I think this is correct. If you say 我找不到那个词, the sentence can by viewed as (我)(找不到那个词) and is a comment about my activities. You could also say 那个词我找不到, which could be viewed as [那个词][(我)(找不到)] and is a comment about what I am able to do with respect to that term. If you say 找不到了, this is {[那个词][(我)(找不到)]}{了} and is a comment about a new situation marked by the endpoint signaled by 了. It means something like: "Guess what! I am unable to find that term." Here 了 is roughly equivalent to "guess what."

In my view, this explains the presence of 了 in such expressions as 太棒了. The 了 was originally necessary to express the beginning of a new state or of a new judgment. I think it is now almost automatic in a conversational setting.

A similarly surprising use of 了 is in such expressions as 他是我的朋友了, meaing "Oh, he is my friend." This sentence may be used if someone you are talking to has been describing interactions with a person and you realize that you actually know the person. Here the use of 了 emphasizes that you are describing a state that had begun and therefore was true before you both begain discussing the person. This use of 了 then helps to signal the correction of a misunderstanding.

[Glenn]

Wow, that's a lot to digest. Just FYI, 那小女孩把長鬍子的老先生看成是她爺爺了 was an isolated example sentence given in the 國語辭典 under the headword 看成, so I've been treating it as an isolated utterance that could stand on its own, although I suppose that may be overly simplistic.

I'm glad someone agrees with my interpretation of 了 in the sort of set expressions mentioned above, at least. :-)

[Michaelyus]

I do agree with Glenn's intepretation as a 'not-quite-they-ought-to-be' particle in a few cases. But thanks to Altair for presenting that so eloquently and with so many examples!

[陆咔思]

What's the meaning of 了 between two instances of the same verb? For example in the sentence 他的手拍了拍丹妮的肩膀 - how is this different from 他的手拍了丹妮的肩膀?

[anonymoose]

It implies the action was carried out briefly.

[Altair]

When verbs are reduplicated, it can represent what some call the "delimitive aspect." As anonymoose indicates, it can mean that action is carried out briefly or for a "limited" time. In this sense, I thing it is the same or similar to using a verb with 一下. It may also be the same as the pattern X一X, as in 看一看, that is possible for monosyllabic verbs.

Others call the reduplicated form the "tentative aspect," because it can also have this meaning, especially when not used with 了. This usage can also represent a less assertive and therefore more polite tone. Verbs used with 一下 can also be used this way.

As a lone term, 拍 describes the nature of the action, but nothing about how it unfolds or what results from it. It means something like "engaging in patting." Using 拍拍 says that the action is limited in duration or tentative. It means "give a pat (or two)."

Verbs like "pat" and 拍 are called "semelfactive" verbs, which means that, at their core, they describe an action that is realized instantaneously. That means they take no appreciable time to happen. In actual usage, however, they often describe repeated action. In English, we do not really distinguish the two uses, but Chinese does, by using this pattern of repetition.