"到" and "来"

[dreamon]

Hello, Chinese experts,

Here is a beginner's Chinese grammar question. The characters "到" and "来" are obviously very frequent and it is critical to understand them well, but to me they seem quite similar in meaning when used as verbs or verb suffixes. What is the difference, for example, between "我到了" and "我来了"? Both characters often appear as suffixes (or particles) to other verbs, for example 看到, 听到, 找到, 想到, 办到 for "到", and 回来, 起来, 带来, 出来, 醒来 for "来"; both seem to indicate successfulness or completion of the action (right?). If so, why sometimes we see "到" and sometimes "来", is there any rule here?

Thank you!

[Zio-Σ]

So, first of all you have to divide these two words and their uses. They can be used both as verbs and complement. When their are used as verbs they are without any other verbs before. If they are used as complements, they are put after a verb.

1) The difference between 我到了 and 我来了. These two sentence have different meaning. The first means that you arrived in a different place than the place of the person you are speaking with (for example if you are calling on mobile phone). The second means that you arrived in the same place of the person you are speakin with. (for example you are waiting your friend and it suddenly come, you have to say 你来了！ and not 你到了！but if you are not sure if your friend, for example, arrived you have to ask 你到(达)了吗？)

2) In the example above, these two words are used as verbs. When they are used with another verb (such as 看到，听到，出来 etc..) they are used as complements. In this case, as you understood, they means that you action was/is successful. Usually you can catch how to use them in the proper way asking you some question:

• The main verb describe a movement in space (出，起，回) or is just a common verb (看，听，找). Usually if we are using a movement verb it require 来 and if we are using a common verb, it require 到.
  
• Another important thing to better understand how to use these two complement (and, I think, how to better understand how Chinese works), is where the action take place and to who is oriented the verb. If the verb is oriented to us (for example "You come,from another place,to me") usually you have to use 来 and if the verb is oriented to others you have to use 到. A quick example: it's a raining day and I am waiting for you. When I saw you, you didn't have the umbrella so I can say: 你带到雨伞吗？but if you have to give to me the umbrella and I did not saw you got it I can say: 你(给我)带来雨伞吗？.
  
• If you have to negate these construction you have to say 看不到，听不到，出不来，起不来 etc.
  

One last tip: I think the best way to understand these things is to not jib about grammatic and take it as they are. Learn that Chinese say 出来，看到 etc. because the more you get into Chinese, the more you'll discover strange structure that will be not translated into you language.

P.S.: I am not a Chinese student neither a Chinese or an English native so may be other guys can better explain this topic. All these information come from books, Chinese friend and experience. Hope it could be useful. Keep studying!

[creamyhorror]

I somewhat agree with the above explanation, though I'm not a native speaker. IMO: As a main verb, 来 is for movement towards the speaker (进来看看吧), so it's equivalent to "come" in English. 到 is for movement towards somewhere besides the speaker (我到你那边看看； 我快到了).

As a complement, 来 is more for completion *towards* the subject, while 到 is more for general completion/arrival. For example, 听来 (to hear [information] [from]) vs 听到 (to hear [a sound]). The difference is subtle and maybe not consistent, so as Zio-Σ says, you should "take it as they are" and memorise verbs+complements as they are used.

If you want a proper grammatical explanation, maybe you can check a grammar book like Yip & Rimmington's "Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar".

[dreamon]

Thank you very much, Zio-Σ, for such a beautiful and detailed explanation!

Zio-Σ> If you have to negate these construction you have to say 看不到，听不到，出不来，起不来 etc.

Interesting, I didn't know that! I thought that they are just two-character words.

Zio-Σ> I think the best way to understand these things is to not jib about grammatic and take it as they are.

For me here, grammar is a kind of mnemonic, to help memorize the patterns. I understand that human language is not C++ or algebra, but rules provide an intuitive scaffolding on which to build real knowledge. They are also a quick and cheap outlet for a momentary enthusiasm towards learning the language.

creamyhorror> As a main verb, 来 is for movement towards the speaker (进来看看吧), so it's equivalent to "come" in English.

I'm not sure that "come" in English implies movement towards the speaker or the listener; one can come to any place. In English, the difference between "come" and "arrive" seems just in the level of formality: "come" is more colloquial and more frequent. On the other hand, both 来 and 到 are extremely frequent. But I'm not a native English speaker.

creamyhorror> you can check a grammar book like Yip & Rimmington's "Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar".

Wow, this book indeed seems to have a whole subsection for each of these verbs! I have a grammar book, but much less comprehensive one. Thank you for the tip!

[creamyhorror]

I'm not sure that "come" in English implies movement towards the speaker or the listener; one can come to any place.

"He came to Beijing" implies the listener or speaker is in Beijing. To me, "He was warmly received wherever he went" sounds (edit) more natural than "...wherever he came", due to the directional implication of "come". But no worries, we're here to talk about Chinese.

edit: although I will say "when he came to a church, they received him warmly" sounds okay, so maybe the direction is towards a defined point of reference - in this case, a church/"they".

In English, the difference between "come" and "arrive" seems just in the level of formality: "come" is more colloquial and more frequent. On the other hand, both 来 and 到 are extremely frequent.

"Come" has a directional implication, just as 来 does in Chinese. There's no difference in formality between 来 and 到.

Yip & Rimmington will be very helpful to your studies if you enjoy grammar, no doubt. Glad I could be of assistance.

[dreamon]

Thank you for your help, creamyhorror! BTW, yesterday I came across a picture that is very creamy and extremely horrifying, so that I nearly fainted - and the worst is that it can happen to anyone who does not lead a healthy lifestyle: here it is... (from Wikipedia page) While we study, let's not forget to exercise regularly.

[creamyhorror]

Wow, that is indeed incredible and horrifying. If the person were the victim of a stabbing I wonder if someone passing by an hour later would think he had yellow cream for blood :blink:

[LaoLiang]

Hmm simply put you'd use 我到了 if the recipient is not present in person and 我来了 if the recipient is present or [supposedly] nearby.